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| Feb-05-07 |
| CapablancaFan: <IMDONE4> He has none. I've had to tangle with <plato> in the past. He tends to be long on talk and short on facts. |
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| Feb-06-07 |
| Plato: Poor <CapablancaFan>. He tangled with me, alright... One of the things he's tangled with me on was that he thinks that his god Capablanca had a fully modern understanding of the (...get this...) Sicilian Defense! So anybody who wants to see "long on talk and short on facts" need only visit the Capablanca page and observe his ramblings. Capablanca was undoubtedly one of the greatest players of all time, but there is no need to anachronize him with the blind hero worship that <CapablancaFan> regularly displays. <IMDONE4, (and the sorely beaten <CapablancaFan> too, while were at it)> While there is no conclusive proof, there is a lot of evidence, which is why most modern chess historians have called this game a forgery (see below). "The 100 Best Chess Games of the 20th Century" by GM Andy Soltis includes this game, but at the same time calls it a forgery. In Chess Life, Dec. 02, GM Larry Evans writes "Apparently Adams missed the win but Torre pointed out the brilliancy in their post-mortem analysis. Later he told Mexican friends it was not so imporant who had won or the authenticity of the record, only that it was a beautiful game.>. Adams wrote a letter to Herman Helms, editor of the Bulletin, on Nov. 22, 1920, in which he discusses his friend Carlos Torre, tells him where to get a picture of him for publication, and writes "I am sending you herewith a copy of the only game that he could give me and I hope you will find it of interest." It is *not* the Adams-Torre game (see below). There is mention of a simultaneous exhibition by Torre and all sorts of other things, but there is no mention of the Adams-Torre game in the letter. This date of the letter is November 22 of 1920. Chess historian Dale Brandreth writes the following: <‘This letter is very significant because it drives the final nail in the coffin of one of the most famous games of all time, a game that simply never was. ... It seems obvious that the game could not have been played up to 22 November of that year without Adams mentioning it or sending it to Helms, so except for the faint possibility that it was played from 23 November to 31 December of 1920 – and then surely Adams would have sent it to Helms at that later date – there simply was no such remarkable game played until that time. When Torre sent the game to Helms in 1925, it was simply his reconstruction of the “game” including the post mortem analysis that comprised the beautiful final combination. The game actually sent to Helms, referred to in this letter, could not have been the game since it was so sensational that Helms would have immediately published it...... I also learned on excellent authority from Mexican contacts that Torre admitted to Mexican friends that the “game” was really post mortem analysis from a position reached in a skittles game in which after the game Torre showed Adams how he could have won brilliantly. Torre’s statement was that it was not so important who had won or the authenticity of the record, only that it was a beautiful game.’> |
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| Feb-06-07 |
| Plato: But I think most significant is the testimony of Gabriel Velasco, who knew Torre and wrote the definitive biography of him ("The Life and Games of Carlos Torre"). In that book he writes the following: <‘While some authors (e.g. Fine in The World’s Great Chess Games, 1951, or Nigel Davies in The Power Chess Program, 1998) have presented this as an actual, serious encounter, there is strong, almost conclusive evidence that it was not. The author once casually queried Torre on it. After 57 years he could not quite recall the details, but what he said implied that from his viewpoint it really didn’t matter if it had been a skittles game or post-mortem analysis, so long as the combination was extremely original and beautiful. Torre’s friends, the late Alejandro Báez, and Pedro Busto Undiano, still living in Mexico City at this writing, knew him well when his memory was more reliable. Both of them assured this writer that the game in fact was never played; rather the whole idea had occurred to Torre after analyzing a skittles game. They said that Torre could find no better way to make the beautiful possibilities he saw known to the public than by inventing a game, so he decided to pretend he had lost it to his teacher Edward [sic – Edwin] Adams, for whom he had great affection.’> For further reading, noted chess historian Edward Winter tackles the subject in "A Chess Omnibus" (page 339) and "Chess Explorations" (page 257). |
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| Feb-06-07 |
| Plato: Whether or not you think these facts are enough to prove that the game was a forgery (I personally don't think it's enough to prove it conclusively, but there is still some substantial evidence), you'll see that when people call this game a "forgery" or "fake," it has nothing to do with the game being too amazing, and everything to do with the historical record. That was my initial claim, and I stand by it as fairly obvious. <CapablancaFan> Sorry for having to refute you an umpteenth time, but it appears that you were still sore about what happened to you in our last debate , so you felt it necessary to hurl another insult at me as soon as you got the chance (even though you apparently had absolutely no knowledge , as usual, of the relevant history.) I understand. Really, I do. |
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| Feb-06-07 |
| Plato: <CapablancaFan> Speaking of "long on talk and short on facts," you might want to consider changing what you wrote about Capa in your bio: <"World champion from 1921-1927, he is the only player to have won the world title by defeating the incumbent in a match without losing a game"> |
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Mar-02-08
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| Knight13: Carlos Torre-Repetto was Edwin Ziegler Adams's trainer so, yeah, I think they might've made this game up but... I still don't think they actually did. |
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| Mar-02-08 |
| mindkontrolle: awesome game!!!!!! yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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| Mar-02-08 |
| MichAdams: Cherchez la femme. |
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May-11-08
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| kingscrusher: I have done a youtube video of the most exciting part of the combination of this game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJe8... |
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Jun-03-08
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| notyetagm: Perhaps the best game ever for learning the tactic of <OVERWORKED PIECES>, that <OBLIGATION RESTRICTS MOBILITY>: the constant need for -BOTH- the Black queen and Black c8-rook to <DEFEND> the Black e8-rook/mating square means the White queen is free to occupy squares (g4, c4, c7(!! my fav), b7) that only -APPEAR- to be <DEFENDED>. White to move: 20 ?
 click for larger viewPosition after 20 c4-c7!!
 click for larger view |
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| Nov-16-08 |
| Dr. Siggy: Whether or not it is a sham, this <Adams vs Torre> game has been highly (and rightly) praised everytime, everywhere; but it seems to have a precedent - which (in my humble patzer's opinion) is not inferior to it. It's <Tarrasch vs B. Richter, Halle 1882> (or 1883?), as one may confirm in Tarrasch's "Three Hundred Games of Chess", English translation, Park Hill, Oklahoma, USA, page 37 (game n. 40). The 'Praeceptor Germaniae seu Mundi' used this same game to illustrate a middle game theme - "the mate on the back rank: insufficient guard of the base" - in his "The Game of Chess", English translation, London 1934, pages 186-7 (diagram n. 289):  click for larger viewQuoting from "The Game of Chess":
"In position n. 289 the win is quite problem-like. The play was 1... Kh8? 2. Bxe6 dxe6 3. Rd1 Qc7 4. Ba5! Qxa5 (if Qe7, then Rd8+ and the Queen must be given up for the Rook); 5. Qb4!! and Black's Queen is lost for, if 5... Qxb4, then 6. Rd8+ Qf8 7. Rxd8#; while, if 5... Qc7, then 6. Qf8#. "If, at the third move, Black plays 3... Qe7 (instead of Qc7), there follows 4. Qb4 c5 5. Qxc5 Qe8 (naturally Black cannot accept the offered sacrifice of the Queen because of the threatened mate by Rd8#, etc.); 6. Qd4! (not Qe5, for then Black would guard against the threatened mate at g7 by playing Ra7!) e5 7. Qxe5 Qf8 or g8 8. Qxg7+! Qxg7 9. Rd8#. These combinations are indeed charming!" |
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| Dec-23-08 |
| WhiteRook48: Black: "But I don't want this silly wooden piece" |
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| Jan-01-09 |
| WhiteRook48: what a game |
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| Jan-10-09 |
| WhiteRook48: hilarious game |
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| Jan-31-09 |
| WhiteRook48: this game is so funny, even though there are such basic tactics to it |
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| Feb-12-09 |
| WhiteRook48: why not 16...h6? |
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Feb-16-09
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| LIFE Master AJ: Some good reading on this game ... and my annotations are about the seventh pick ...
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&... |
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Feb-16-09
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| LIFE Master AJ: For my part, I prefer to believe the game is real.
***
# 1.) It was published in a New Orleans newspaper just shortly after it was played. # 2.) There is no "smoking gun" ... absolute, historical evidence to prove that the game was a fake. # 3.) The person or persons who tried to discredit this game waited until MANY years later ... memories could have faded, who knows how well I will remember my games ... if and when I live to be (say) 100 years old. |
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Feb-27-09
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| just a kid: <Whiterook48>16...h6? leads to 17.Bxf6! gxf6<since 17...Bxf6 leads to 18.Rxe8+>18.Qg4+ Kf8<18...Kh7? 19.Rxe7 Rxe7 20.Rxe7 Qxe7 21.Qxc8<e1 is covered by the knight>>19.Qh3 wins a pawn with possible attack since if 19...Kg7 leads to the line after 18...Kh7. |
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| Feb-27-09 |
| WhiteRook48: Oh.
Then I guess 11...h6 is better, but I'm just a patzer.
Crazy me. |
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| Jun-22-09 |
| dandylion: "This is Chess, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." |
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| Sep-03-09 |
| Cercatore: One of the most chess's lesson EVER. |
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| Sep-29-09 |
| Raisin Death Ray: This game is as beautiful as Eliza Dushku! |
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Nov-08-09
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| FSR: Look at Winter's article on this game: http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/... The two games at the end, the only known legitimate games of Adams', are very telling to my mind. They are horrid games, barely above beginner level. There is no way that someone who played like that could possibly have conceived this incandescent brilliancy. I doubt that there were very many players in the world in 1920 capable of playing this game. |
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Nov-08-09
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| FSR: Note incidentally that if Black had instead of 17...Bxf6 played 17...gxf6, 18.Rxe7 (as Torre gave - see photocopy in Winter's piece cited below) with the idea of 18...Rxe7 19.Rxe7 Qxe7 20.Qg4+ winning the rook is actually a blunder. 17...gxf6 18.Rxe7? Qxe7! refutes it in view of 19.Rxe7?? Rc1+ and mates. White would have to soldier on with something like 18.h4! Qc7 19.Rxe8+ Rxe8 20.Qxf6 Qe7 21.Qf4, when according to Rybka Black is up the equivalent of about half a pawn. White would have good drawing chances because of Black's exposed king, but no more. |
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