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Later Kibitzing > |
| Aug-31-04 |
| trguitar: If 7. ...Ke7, then white's best move is not 8. Bxg8, but 8. Qb3!. Then play might go 8. ...Nf6 9. Nh4 d5 10. Bxd5 Qe8 11. Bxb7 Bxb7 12. Nf5+ Kd8 13. Qxb7 Qc6 Black is still toast. |
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Aug-31-04
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| Gregor Samsa Mendel: <trguitar>--Agreed, black is toast--but not charred beyond recognition (yet). When I was first trying to solve this problem, I saw 7. Bxf7+ but couldn't find a quick kill after 7....Ke7. I'm just glad I didn't overlook something obvious. |
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| Aug-31-04 |
| capanegra: This can’t be true!! In the database figures another game between these two players in 1951, which is almost (but not exactly) identical!
Krogius vs Ojanen, 1951. I remember this because I kibitzed in the other game many months ago. What is going on?? |
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Aug-31-04
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| acirce: It means that two versions of the same game have been submitted, if someone knows which one is historically accurate and can give a source it would settle it and chessgames.com could remove the wrong one. |
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Aug-31-04
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| pittpanther: What about 8 ... Kf6 for black? White is still good but I do not see the immediate knockout for white. |
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Aug-31-04
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| Dres1: Hey chessgames... how do you decide what games to post? My father is a player, but you seem only to put his whak games, rather than his good ones, he has beaten a fair share of GMs, and numerous IMs... for example, he beat Walter Browne twice and lost once, the only game i see is the loss :(, he has beaten Shabalov, Wojkiewicz and others that i cant think of right now... his name is Nelson Castaneda, underrated FM |
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| Aug-31-04 |
| karik: The player with white pieces must be Ragnar Krogius (1903-1997), a finnish master. Also some other games (pre-1946) of N V Krogius in chessgames.com are actually RK's. |
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Aug-31-04
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| iron maiden: <Dres1> Since your father is master-strength, you can submit to chessgames.com as many of his games as you want. |
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| Aug-31-04 |
| Stonewaller2: <pittpanther> After 8. ...  f6 9.  d5+ e6 and other variations transpose to the text, but what about 9. ... xe5 10.  f4+ e6 11.  g4+ f7 or 10. ... xe4 11. f3+ f5 or ... d4? Inquiring minds want to know. "The King is a fighting piece," indeed! |
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Aug-31-04
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| chessgames.com: <Hey chessgames... how do you decide what games to post? My father is a player, but you seem only to put his whak games, rather than his good ones> Feel free to submit games by your father. Because our database focuses on the very strongest players it's not uncommon for second-tier players to appear in the database only when they are getting destroyed by the top players. As people like you submit more games we'll flesh out many of the missing games and offer a deeper look into the games of many IM's and FM's. |
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| Aug-31-04 |
| weirdoid: <chessgames.com>, is this Ragnar Krogius the same guy as Nikolai V Krogius ? This game seems identical with Krogius vs Ojanen, 1951 |
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| Aug-31-04 |
| weirdoid: Oh, wait! The other game is 2 moves shorter, Bc1 never moves - but the finish is too similar to be coincidence IMVHO |
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Aug-31-04
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| chessgames.com: We're sticking with this game score. We believe that Krogius missed a slightly quicker mate which was featured in the other version. |
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| Aug-31-04 |
| ughaibu: This game is in Reinfeld's "great short games of the masters", I think this is the correct score and I dont think it's specified which Krogius, I assumed it was the famous one. Perhaps Benzol has a copy of the book and can check. |
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Aug-31-04
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| RonB52734: This game is also quite similar to the more recent (and somewhat shorter) Chanawangsa vs Krause, 1984 with an interesting close-quarters queen mate at the end. The fatal error here for black was 3...e5, was it not? It has a 68% losing percentage for black according to the Opening Explorer |
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Aug-31-04
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| patzer2: Today's (7. ?) puzzle solution is an opening trap in the Sicilian, Smith-Morra gambit, featuring a pseudo-sacrifice on f7 for a "pursuit" or king hunt tactic (bit of a challenge for a Tuesday problem). Black's 3...e5!? defense to the gambit, while maybe not objectively the best reply, is playable. Better is probably 3...d3 as in Kramnik vs Svidler, 2004 or 3...Nf6 as in Short vs Shirov, 2004. A short discussion of these two main-line declined alternatives can bef found at http://www.insight.demon.co.uk/Tech.... White's 4. c3 is a logical gambit followup, and is certainly better than falling for Black's cheap trap 4. Nxe5?? Qa5+  . Black's 4...dxc3 reply again invites White to fall into a novice trap with 5. Nxe5?? Qa5 6. Nxc3 Qxa5 . However, perhaps better is the more flexible 4...Nc6!? as in J Kyroelae vs A Holmsten, 2000 (by transposition), even though White's win in I A Horowitz vs Hrissikopoulos, 1941 seems to have discouraged this try. According to the Opening Explorer's small sample, White won six out of seven with only one draw after 4...Nc6!?, Whereas Black won seven out of nine and lost only two after 4...dxc3. While certainly not "statistically significant," Black's results with 4...Nc6!? and a successful test by a strong master might make 3...e5!? worth examining as a surprise possibility against Smith-Mora players ( at least in skittles or blitz play). |
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| Aug-31-04 |
| mrvocab: I'm surprised no one yet has made the comment that Black avoids immediate mate with 7...Ke7 or 7...Kxf7 8. Nxe5+ Kf6. The continuation of the latter line is 9. Qd4, a somewhat hard to find move. White threatens to win Black's queen with discovery check, i.e. 10. Nc6+, and so Black must move either his king or queen. Since he doesn't have a queen move, 9...Ke7 is forced, followed by 10. Ng6+ and Nxh8 after that. |
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Aug-31-04
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| patzer2: Black's 6...h6?? was the losing blunder. He still could have had drawing chances after 6...Be6!?, as in I V Rohacek vs B Rabar, 1941. P.S., as a correction to my earlier post:
According to the Opening Explorer's small sample, Black lost six out of seven with only one draw <after 4...dxc3>, Whereas Black won seven out of nine and lost only two <after 4...Nc6!?> |
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Aug-31-04
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| patzer2: <mrvocarb> After 7...Ke7 8. Qb3 Nf6 9. Nh4  , Fritz 8 gives White a winning advantage (+2.62 @ 14/58 depth & 1209kN/s) and 7...Kxf7 fares worse. |
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| Sep-01-04 |
| mrvocab: Sure, 7...Ke7 is a decisive loser too, as is 7...Kxf7 8. Nxe5+ Kf6. However, both alternatives lose less quickly to the game moves 7...Kxf7 8. Nxe5+ Ke7, which results in mate in 7. |
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Sep-01-04
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| patzer2: <mrvocab> Indeed, 7...Kxf7 8. Nxe5+ Kf6!? 9. Qd4! is an instructive and interesting sequence. Thanks for pointing that out. |
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| Sep-01-04 |
| Stonewaller2: <mrvocab> In your line, 9. ... e7 isn't exactly forced, but after the only alternative 9. ... e6? (also 8. ... e6? in the main line) 10. d5+ f6 11. f7+ xe5 12. f4+ d4 13. d5#. After 8. ... f6 your 9. d4 looks best; good eye! |
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Sep-01-04
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| patzer2: One can learn a lot about tactics and attacking strategy by breaking down "demolition of pawn structure" combinations, such as 7. Bxf7+!! (pseudo-sacrifice on f7 theme) in this game. For example, Laszlo Polgar, who coached his daughters to much success, has 600 miniature games devoted to these kinds of piece pseudo-sacrifices (f3/f6, g3/g6, h3/h6, f2/f7, g2/g7, h2/h7)in his 1994 book "Chess, 5334 Problems, Combinations and Games." Chess Informant's 1980 Encyclopedia of Chess Middle Games devotes 204 of its 1817 problems to the various "demolition of pawn structure" themes. |
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Sep-01-04
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| patzer2: My break-out analysis of 7. Bxf7+!! is as follows:
7. xf7+!! xf7
[7...Kd7 8. Nxe5+ Ke7 (8...Kc7 9. Nd5#) 9. Nd5#]
[7...Ke7 8. Qb3! (8. Be3! Kxf6 9. Nxe5+ ) 8...Nf6 (8...Qa5 9. Bxg8 ) 9. Nh5 d5 (9...Qb6 10. Ng6+ ) 10. Bxd5 Qe8 (10...Nxd5 11. Ng6+ ; 10...Kd7 11. Bxb7 ) 11. Bxb7 Be6 12. Nd5+ Kf7 13. Bxa8 ] 7. xf7+!! xf7 8. xe5+ f6!?
[8...Ke8 9. Qh5+ g6 10. Qxg6+ Ke7 11. Qf7#]
[8...Ke6 9. Qd5+ Kf6 (9...Ke7 10. Qf7#) 10. Qf7+ Kxe5 11. f4+ Kd4 12. Qd5#] [8...Ke7 9. Nd5+! Ke6 (9...Ke8 10. Qh5+ g6 11. Qxg6#) 10. Qg4+! Kxe5 11. Bf4+ Kxe4 (11...Kd4 12. Be3+ Ke5 (12...Kc4 13. Qe2#; 12...Kd3 13. 0-0-0+ Kc4 14. Qe2+ Kb4 15. Qb5#) 13. Be3+ Kd3 14. 0-0-0#] [8...dxe5 9. Qxd8! Nc6 10. Qc7+ Kg6 11. h4 Bb4 12. h5+ Kh7 13. a3 Ba5 14. Qf7 Nge7 15. b4 Bb6 16. Nd5 ] 7. xf7+!! xf7 8. xe5+ f6!? 9. d4!
[An alternative White win is 9. Qf3+! Kxe5 10. Qf7 Nf6 11. f4+ Kd4 12. Ne2+! Kc5 13. Be3+ Kb5 14. a4+ Kb4 15. Bd2+ Kc5 16. Rc1+ Kb6 17. Qb3+ Ka6 18. Qb5#] [Another winning option for White is 9. Nd5+ Kxe5 10. Qh5+ g5 11. Qf7 Nf6 12. b3 Qa5+ 13. b4 Qxd5 (13...Qd8 14. Bb2+ Kxe4 15. f3+ Kd3 (15...Kf5 g4#) 16. Nf4+ Ke3 (16...gxf4 17. Qb3#) 17. Qc4 gxf4 18. Bc1#] 7. xf7+!! xf7 8. xe5+ f6!? 9. d4! e7
[9...Na6 10. Nc6+ ; 9...dxe5 10. Qxd8+ ; 9...Qa5 10. Nc6+ ; 9...Qc7 10. Nd5+ ; 9...Qe7 10. Nd5+ Ke6 11. Nf4+ Kf6 12. Nh5+ Ke6 13. Qd5#] 7. xf7+!! xf7 8. xe5+ f6!? 9. d4! e7 10. g6+ e8 11. xh8 with a decisive White advantage. |
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| Apr-20-08 |
| puzzlefreak: RUN KING, RUN! |
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Later Kibitzing > |
