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Victor Knorre vs Mikhail Chigorin
St Petersburg (1874), St. Petersburg
Italian Game: Italian Variation (C50)  ·  0-1


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Given 58 times; par: 17 [what's this?]

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Jan-30-06  netlava: What happens if white plays Nxa8 instead of Nxd8?
Premium Chessgames Member
  kevin86: White has the choice of allowing gxh2# or taking the pawn and being mated by Rh1#
Apr-06-07  patzer77: There is a third choice, white moves the rook, black pawn gxh2, white king f1, black pawn queens and mates :)))))
Premium Chessgames Member
  Floyd5642: This is still in the opening book for the Italian Game. They never get into the middle game or anything like that.
Jul-17-09  Knight13: <<13.Nc3??> was the decisive mistake. Correct was <13.h3>> 13...Nf3+ 14. gxf3 Bxf3 White still threatens the mate.
Nov-21-10  meppi: the move 10 hxg3 makes me weep

i love it!

Jul-30-12  LoveThatJoker: Guess-the-Move Final Score:

V Knorre vs Chigorin, 1874.
Your score: 25 (par = 14)


Premium Chessgames Member
  Robed.Bishop: LTJ - Why do you keep posting your scores?
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: < Robed.Bishop: LTJ - Why do you keep posting your scores?>

We've another <AJ> in our midst, a being who requires constant validation of his self-worth and reacts violently to any suggestion that he's less than great in anything. You get out of line-straight to iggy-dom!

Premium Chessgames Member
  Robed.Bishop: <perfidious> Hmm, I don't think he's going to answer.
Jul-31-12  Shams: <Robed.Bishop> Well, he already admitted on his forum that he knows nobody cares but he "wants a public record" of it anyway. From his bio you can see that he just wants to troll and drive up his post count. At least he's honest in his trolling.
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <Robed.Bishop> On another page, he publicly proclaimed my status in his little corner of perdition after precisely two posts. Funny as hell-I'm still laughing!

<Shams> Not a difficult task when so many 'posts' consist of 'awesome game' and 'GG LTJ'. Doing that all day, anyone with a functioning cerebellum could beat the record <Focus> set yesterday.

Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: Guess-the-Move Final Score:

V Knorre vs Chigorin, 1874.
Your score: 26 (par = 14)


Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <OCF> You need to get the particulars down-his score is usually only slightly above par.


Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: I never noticed that, <perfidious> though I <now> notice that my score <was> one point better!
Premium Chessgames Member
  Robed.Bishop: <Shams> Actually, I did see his forum post, the one made in response to your post. I posted there that I agreed with you. He didn't offer a substanative answer to my post there, but here I phrased my question as "why do you keep posting" as opposed to "why do you post."

I was hoping that I might get a better answer here publicly, now that other posts have addressed the issue privately.

Incidentally, I thought your posting on his forum rather than addressing it first in a game forum was a damn decent thing to do.

Premium Chessgames Member
  tpstar: neoo-tpstar (ChessAnyTime 12/10/14): 13. Qg5 Ne2+ 14. Kh1 Rxh2# 0-1.

click for larger view

Know Thy Traps ;>D

Dec-16-16  The Kings Domain: Chigorin made his opponent look like an amateur.
Mar-21-17  sneaky pete: patzer-tpstar (GameNot 3/21/17) 13.h3 Ne2+ 14.Qxe2 Bxe2 15.Ne6 .. 1-0

click for larger view

Black lost on time. He didn't know that trap.

Mar-06-18  Pharetra: In one book the author says, that the casteling 4. 0-0 was too early. Who can explain why?
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: The snag with early castling is that Black has not yet committed his king and, given the chance--as here--he can play for a lightning kingside attack without bothering overmuch about king safety.
Mar-06-18  Pharetra: What's right?

1. For Black it's easier to attack the white position after early castling than before. Why that?

2. For White it's more difficult to parry the white position after early castling than before. Why that?

3. Something else?

Premium Chessgames Member
  DanQuigley: It seems to me highly likely Chigorin knew of the 1862 Steinitz game and followed in Steinitz’s footsteps. The Wikipedia article on Chigorin states that Chigorin paid to keep chess magazines that would have gone under financially afloat. Clearly Chigorin valued and therefore read chess magazines. Also, Russia in 1874 was a highly literate society. Tolstoy and Dostoevsky weren’t composing masterpieces of world literature in a cultural vacuum. Furthermore, Chigorin came to chess unusually late for a person who went on to become one of the world’s best players. He is almost the only example of anyone managing to do this. How did he get up to par so quickly given his lagged start? Carefully reading widely all available chess literature has to be the answer.

In any event, this Chigorin game deviates from the Steinitz game when Knorre plays 9.Nxg5 here instead of Dubois’s 9.h4. Presumably Steinitz in annotating the game explained why 9.Nxg5 would not have worked for White. Probably Chigorin accepted Steinitz’s analysis whereas Knorre did not. Hence we have this game.

Black’s play is fascinating to look at with the strongest computer programs and reveals his play has been highly speculative since he decided to give up his g5 pawn on move 8 for White’s Bishop on g3. Black has sound eighth move alternatives to 8…h5, the best of which appears to be simply 8…O-O with complete equality.

The key position of this game here in my opinion is White’s thirteenth move. Unless you are a computer program, you are playing a lottery in trying to find the best move for White. Chances are not good. Chessbase indicates the position has been reached in thirteen games historically. White has tried four moves, all to no avail: 13.Nc3, 13.h3, 13.Nf7, and 13.h4.

Stockfish after 25 minutes of thought reveals the only viable move for White is 13.h3. Any other loses outright and loses fast. Even then, things are not easy. White must after 13…Ne2+ give up his Queen with 14.Qxe2. After 14…Bxe2, a further fifteen minute think by Stockfish concludes White’s best is now 15.Ne6 because it threatens a Knight fork on c7. There is no close second or viable alternative choice to 15.Ne6.

Now Black rather than take the Rook on f1, which allows the Knight fork and is thus only equal, is advised to play 15…Bb6 (protecting the c7-square). After 15…Bb6 16.Nc3 Bxf1 17.Kxf1 gxf2 Black has a very small edge. An email game that reached this position a few years ago ended in a draw after 43 moves when White played the correct exchanging move 18.Na4.

Sep-08-18  WorstPlayerEver: 13. h3 Ne2+ 14. Qxe2 Bxe2 15. Ne6 Bb6 16. Nc3 Bxf1 17. Kxf1 gxf2 18. Na4 Kd7 19. Nxb6+ axb6 20. Ng5 c6 21. Kxf2 Rh5 22. Nf3 b5 23. Bb3

click for larger view

13. h3 Ne2+ 14. Qxe2 Bxe2 15. Ne6 Bb6 16. Nc3 Bxf1 17. Kxf1 gxf2 18. Na4 Ke7 19. Nxb6 axb6 20. Kxf2 c6 21. Ng7 Raf8 22. Nf5+ Kd7

click for larger view

Intriguing endgame.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Honza Cervenka: Instead of 9.Nxg5 white could have played 9.h4! then already known from H Czarnowski vs G Neumann, 1867. Chigorin's idea with sac of the Queen was awesome but objectively better would have been simple 10...Qe7 11.Nxh8 hxg3 12.hxg3 Qh7 with advantage of black, who is going to get the second minor piece for Rook with continuing attack. In the game Knorre could have avoided immediate catastrophe playing 13.h3! Ne2+ 14.Qxe2 (14.Kh1? Rxh3+ 15.gxh3 Bf3#) 14...Bxe2 15.Ne6 Bb6 16.Nc3 Bxf1 17.Kxf1 gxf2 18.Na4 Kd7 19.Nxb6+ axb6 20.Ng5 etc.
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