< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 9 OF 9 ·
|Aug-24-10|| ||twinlark: <polarmis>
The letter addressed to "Chigorin, Russia" that was safely delivered was amazing.
|Aug-25-10|| ||muwatalli: <The letter addressed to "Chigorin, Russia" that was safely delivered was amazing.> yes, also this paragraph i found amazing.
<His talent was at its peak in the years 1891-95. Being a very nervous man, my father could never stand any smells and particularly the smell of cigars, while such serious opponents as Lasker, Steinitz and others wouldn’t let a cigar leave their mouths while they were playing. They enveloped my father in cigar smoke, which he couldn’t stand. He became stressed and made blunders. Someone wrote: there was the impression that Chigorin was almost too lazy to “seize the crown”. He wasn’t lazy, but given his nervousness the cigar smoke simply prevented him from concentrating in the manner required to work out combinations.>
his daughter makes the cigar smoke seem like a huge advantage against chigorin, the fact that with this supposed disadvantage he would still have a 25 wins 8 draws 26 losses record against steinitz is very interesting.|
|Aug-25-10|| ||polarmis: The article was also published at Chessvibes: http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/t... |
There's an interesting discussion there - linking to http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/... where it's claimed that Chigorin was actually World Champion from 1889-1892.
|Nov-12-10|| ||brankat: Born a 160 years ago, but many of his games still feel full of life.|
R.I.P. Master Mikhail.
|Nov-12-10|| ||polarmis: Also for the 160th anniversary Alexander Kentler published this Russian article on finding Chigorin's grandson, now 84 and living on Long Island, New York (in the first photo there he's standing by his grandfather's grave): http://www.e3e5.com/article.php?id=...|
|Sep-19-11|| ||markwell: A strong player, but not the 'first Russian grandmaster'. Not a grandmaster at all.|
|Oct-17-11|| ||Korifej: markwell: A strong player, but not the 'first Russian grandmaster'. Not a grandmaster at all.
Chigorin played for world championship but he was not a grandmaster.This is one off most stupid things i ever heard.|
|Oct-17-11|| ||bronkenstein: A brief pen-portrait from the New York 1889 Tournament <Chigorin is a rather slender Russian, with black hair and dark complexion. His face is lighted up by thoughtful and large light-blue eyes. He is nervous in his manner, and, as the play proceeds, becomes more nervous, perhaps from drinking a large cup of strong coffee and smoking a cigar. He watches the game intently and deliberates long before making a move, when he sometimes gets up, stretches himself, and goes to another table, where he watches the game for a couple of minutes.>|
( From http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail... )
|Nov-12-11|| ||brankat: R.I.P. Mikhail Chigorin.|
|Jan-19-12|| ||AVRO38: <Petrosianic><It's only partly true that Tchigorin challenged Steinitz after winning New York 1889.>|
It's not partly true at all, it's completely false. The 1889 Chigorin-Steinitz match took place in January and the New York tournament took place in March.
<He declined to challenge at that time, having just lost his first match to Steinitz the year before. Weiss declined too, so Gunsberg got it. Then, 3 years later, Tchigorin challenged again.>
Total nonsense! Steinitz had resigned the title during the run up to the 1889 New York tournament which officially stated in it's regulations that it was a World Championship tournament, and that the winner would be World Champion. The second place finisher had the right to challenge the winner to a title match if he so chose. This had the full support of Steinitz who was one of the chief organizers and promoters of the tournament. Steinitz had this to say on the subject:
"I know I am not fit to be champion and I am not likely to bear that title forever. Therefore let us select a better one, and whoever it may be, I shall cheerfully say to him, like the old soldier: My son, here you have my spear, it becomes too heavy for my arm."
"Anyhow, I may positively state that if I do not take part in the main contest I shall not challenge the winner...the ultimate winner, provided that he fulfills all the conditions of the Committee shall have my most loyal support for his Champion title to which I shall lay no claim..."
It is clear that the New York tournament of 1889 was not meant to select a challenger to Steinitz, but to determine the new World Champion. Steinitz himself was one of the chief movers behind this tournament and was 100% behind it's World Championship status.
After the tournament Weiss went into virtual retirement from chess and returned to his banking career. Gunsberg (3rd place) did indeed challenge Chigorin (1st place) in 1890 to a match with identical terms to Steinitz-Zukertort 1886. The match took place in Havana and ended in a 9-9 tie (ala Fischer). According to the New York Tribune the Chigorin-Gunsberg match was for “the championship of the world”.
The Steinitz-Gunsberg match however, was an informal match (limited number of games with draws counting toward the final score) and not a World Championship match (unlimited number of games and draws do not count). Nowhere in the match contract is the world championship mentioned. In fact here is the exact wording from the contract:
"Agreement entered into the Sixth day of December, 1890 by and between William Steinitz, of New York, and Isidor Gunsberg, of London, to play a Chess Match in the City of New York, under the auspices of the Manhattan Chess Club, either in private or in public, as may be arranged between the players and the Manhattan Chess Club, for the prize of seventy-five pounds sterling, deposited by Mr. Gunsberg with Mr. L.D. Cohn, the Hon. Treasurer of the Manhattan Chess Club, to be paid by that gentleman to the winner of the match, and also for fees arranged and agreed to by the Manhattan Chess Club."
|Jan-20-12|| ||Petrosianic: <It's not partly true at all, it's completely false. The 1889 Chigorin-Steinitz match took place in January and the New York tournament took place in March.>|
You might not be aware of this, but Steinitz and Tchigorin actually played two championship matches. Not only did Tchigorin not use New York 1889 to challenge for a match that had already taken place, he never challenged for that match at all. Steinitz challenged him.
|Jan-20-12|| ||AVRO38: <You might not be aware of this, but Steinitz and Tchigorin actually played two championship matches. Not only did Tchigorin not use New York 1889 to challenge for a match that had already taken place, he never challenged for that match at all. Steinitz challenged him.>|
I'm glad to see you agree that New York 1889 had absolutely nothing to do with Chigorin-Steinitz 1889. Where you are mistaken though is in calling the Chigorin-Steinitz matches "championship matches." Both 1889 and 1892 were 20 game matches with draws counting toward the final result (1892 had a 3 game tie break at the end). Steinitz explicitly stated that such matches were not fit for a world championship contest and he seems to have employed this format when playing informal matches during the 80's and '90's.
All matches that I know of that were explicitly referred to as World Championship matches from 1886-1897 (Steinitz-Zukertort 1886, Chigorin-Gunsberg 1890, Lasker-Steinitz 1897) had an unlimited format with first to 10 wins being the champion, draws not counting, and some form of 9-9 clause. Lasker-Steinitz 1894 and Chigorin-Tarrasch 1893 also used this format but their championship status was not universally accepted by the entire chess world at the time.
|Jan-20-12|| ||King Death: < Korifej: <markwell: A strong player, but not the 'first Russian grandmaster'. Not a grandmaster at all.> Chigorin played for world championship but he was not a grandmaster.This is one off most stupid things i ever heard.>|
Technically <markwell>'s absolutely right, that title didn't exist in Chigorin's lifetime.
|Jan-20-12|| ||TheFocus: Actually, we have references to <Grand-Master> dating even back to Morphy's time:|
From <Edward Winter's Chess Notes>:
<Little-known nineteenth-century occurrences of the term ‘grandmaster’ are always welcome. Robert John McCrary (Columbia, SC, USA) forwards one from page 324 of the <Chess Player’s Chronicle, 1854>:
‘Many a player can conduct a game without the board coolly and steadily, but who, save De la Bourdonnais, under such circumstances, invented attacks profound in conception, brilliant in execution, and enduring upon analysis? Who but the <Chess Grand-Master> could have contested a game without the board against a player like Boncourt, with the remotest chance of success?’>
|Jan-20-12|| ||TheFocus: Winter also has other references to "grandmaster" in <Kings, Commoners and Knaves> and <A Chess Omnibus>.|
And don't even mention: "In 1914, Tsar Nicholas conferred the titles of Grandmaster on the top five finishers at the St. Petersburg tournament."
That myth was first started in 1940.
|Mar-22-12|| ||Rook e2: I think they forgot the Chigorin defence in the French opening(anti-French) in this bio: 1.e4-e6 2. Qe2|
|Aug-18-12|| ||Karpova: On April 1903, Chigorin presented analysis on the game Lasker / Rice vs Hoffer / Maroczy, 1900 (reprinted on pages 156-157 of the 1903 'Wiener Schachzeitung') challenging the Rice gambit. He asked Prof. Rice what he could do against the variation shown by him. The response was that Prof. Rice suggested a six-game match between Dr. Emanuel Lasker and Chigorin.|
The match took place in the Hotel Metropole in Brighton, from August 3 to 15, 1903. Dr. Emanuel Lasker had the White pieces in every game as they had to play the Rice gambit. Chigorin won +2 =3 -1 as is reported on page 224 of the 1903 'Wiener Schachzeitung'.
This was not a competitive match as Chigorin also emphasized in the 'Novoye Vremya' but a research on the Rice gambit. They played 4 sessions a week, with 1 hour for 10 moves and not more than four hours per session (page 250 of the 1903 'Wiener Schachzeitung').
Here are the games (with dates accoring to pages 251 to 252 of the 1903 'Wiener Schachzeitung' on the game pages):
Game 1: Lasker vs Chigorin, 1903
Game 2: Lasker vs Chigorin, 1903
Game 3: Lasker vs Chigorin, 1903 (ended after 29...Kg7)
Game 4: Lasker vs Chigorin, 1903
Game 5: Lasker vs Chigorin, 1903
Game 6: Lasker vs Chigorin, 1903
|Aug-19-12|| ||TheFocus: In matches involving the Rice Gambit, Lasker never came out good.|
He lost matches against Schlechter and Tschigorin, and drew one (+1-1=1) against Julius Finn.
|Sep-15-12|| ||Karpova: Chigorin was permitted to participate in the 3rd International Tournament at Monaco, 1903. He travelled there (it took him 4 days) but then president of the tournament committee Prince Andrey Dadian of Mingrelia announced his demission in case of Chigorin being allowed to play. So Chigorin was dismissed. The reason for the Prince's behaviour was that Chigorin allegedly insulted him repeatedly in the press over the years. At least, Chigorin received 1,500 Francs as compensation and got the permission to write about this incident.|
From pages 45-46 of the 1903 'Wiener Schachzeitung'
|Nov-12-12|| ||RookFile: Great player, his games were full of dynamic content.|
|Nov-12-12|| ||HeMateMe: Wasn't he considered "the father of Russian chess"?|
|Nov-12-12|| ||Abdel Irada: <Being a very nervous man, my father could never stand any smells and particularly the smell of cigars....>|
This makes me wonder: In the light of hindsight, is it not probable that Chigorin's "nervousness" was in reality Asperger's Syndrome, a common enough affliction among chessplayers and other intellectual introverts, and one characterized in part by sensitivity to multiple forms of stimuli, notably including strong odors?
|Apr-11-13|| ||offramp: It sounds more like Roderick Usher Syndrome.|
|Apr-12-13|| ||RookFile: I think cigars stink, myself. That's my scientific analysis.|
What is great is Chigorin's chess. Truly a modern, dynamic player.
|Apr-30-13|| ||ketchuplover: Kudos on your world championship reign herr chigorin :)|
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