|Dec-21-04|| ||Benzol: Lajos Asztalos
Born 29th July 1889 in Pecs
Died 1st November 1956 in Budapest
Hungarian Champion in 1913 he was awarded the IM title in 1950.
|Jul-29-06|| ||Knight13: <Lajos Asztalos was born on the 29th of July 1889 in Pecs, Hungary. He was awarded the IM title in 1950 and International Judge in 1951. He was Hungarian Champion in 1913. After World War I, he moved to Yugoslavia and represented that country in the 1927, 1931, and 1936 chess olympiads. He returned to Hungary in 1942. He became Vice President of the Hungarian Chess Union and Secretary of the FIDE Qualification Committee. He was a professor of philosophy. He passed away in Budapest in 1956.> He earned some good titles. Happy Birthday, and Player of the Day.|
|Jul-29-06|| ||EmperorAtahualpa: Since he died in the middle of the Hungarian Revolt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1956_H...), his death probably had political reasons.|
Does anyone know the details?
|Jul-29-06|| ||mahmoudkubba: <EmperorAtahualpa>: To tell u the truth I liked ur thoughts abt the player. But have this question for the Wikipedia the smallest son of the American-European Internet Division. Well the second one is clearly defined as WWW: World Wide Web: and that mean it keeps widening till a not decided domain or limit or boarder. Also their are the possibilities of the wrong answers very easy to be done and entered inside its identity. The son of the WWW as one can say is the wikipedia itself with the ability for many except some few articles to be amended in a wrong manner. I am really afraid that one day we shall wake up to find some sad tragedy happened from not studying the such mistakes.|
|Jul-29-06|| ||LoFarkas: Halfway through that post, I though "That's so mahmoudkubba". Then glanced at the sn at the top.. yeah, nothing new under the sun.|
As to Asztalos, I made a quick attempt at looking up. It was fruitless.
Given that he was 67 at the time and had lived through 2 world wars, I'd guess that death by natural causes is likely. There wasn't *that* much blodshed during the revolution.
|Jul-29-06|| ||mahmoudkubba: Well, apart from these mistakes on both wikipedia and the www. American-European Division Internet, their r also the trouble of the sex matters been on on at least one of the two and the unfortunate prohibiting on some who wants real life and that they r not playing like many.|
<LoFarkas>: Well, do u mean that u didn't understand what I was trying to mention?
|Jul-29-06|| ||LoFarkas: No, I did understand that. I mean that your English is not perfect by a long shot (which is okay with me, no problem at all) and you were going off at a tangent. You are one of the most recognizable posters here, that's for sure.
Yeah, Wikipedia may contain false information but it hardly ever (never?) does, and I don't see what that has to do with Asztalos anyway.|
Incidentally, I don't understand half of your 2nd post...
|Jul-29-06|| ||EmperorAtahualpa: <mahmoudkubba> I guess you're trying to say that Wikipedia might get some facts wrong about the Hungarian Revolt, right? Well, since Wikipedia's articles are not always written by the appropriate experts, indeed the content might not always be completely reliable.|
However, concerning the Hungarian Revolt we don't need to know the details. All that is relevant right now is that it started on October 23 and ended on November 4. And since the man in question, Mr. Lajos Asztalos, was born on November 1, that alone can make us believe that he did indeed die as a direct consequence of the Hungarian Revolution.
|Jul-29-06|| ||EmperorAtahualpa: <LoFarkas> Well, he might indeed have died because of natural reasons, but I sincerely doubt it. Also keep in mind the following factors:|
- He died in Budapest, which was the city where the Hungarian Revolt was the most active and most of the violence was there too.
- Mr. Asztalos was an intellectual, as he was not only a keen chess-player, but also a professor of languages and philosophy. Intellectuals were more of a rarity in those days then they are now, so that increases his chances that he was involved in politics. Moreover, the fact that he was active in the Hungarian Chess federation also leaves the impression that he was active in organizational life. Then, why not also in politics? Chess players always have had a knack for politics. It is not a coincidence that so many of us on this website are also actively discussing politics in the Kibitizer's Cafe. And particularly in the Cold War era, the chess scene was much influenced by politics.
- During the first part of the Hungarian Revolt (when Mr. Asztalos died), many pro-Soviet communists were killed. It would not be a surprise at all if Mr. Asztalos was among these victims.
|Jul-29-06|| ||brankat: <EA> Dr.Aztalos passed away, just like everybody else does. Anything else is pure speculation, unless You have the facts, which, obviously You don't. As a future scientist You should know as much.|
Somehow the Westerners see, or look for, a conspiracy ewerywhere, whether it is justified or not. Is that what they teach in schools these days?
It has been 50 years since the Revolt, 15 years since the demise of the USSR and the Warsaw pact. It may be about time to move on. Not that the West has been all that inoccent and perfect either. Especially in last 15 years.
|Jul-29-06|| ||ughaibu: Of course, everything Brankat has written in the above post is pertinent, I would just like to add that the promotion of deviant realities is socially destructive by virtue of the damage caused to the commonality required by human communication, compulsive anti-East-Europism is an example of deviant reality. Even more importantly, promotion of cliched deviant realities is extremely boring, who wants a society composed of boring people?|
|Jul-29-06|| ||Calli: The odd site that finds the graves of chess players has a picture of Asztalos grave.|
They don't mention any extreme circumstances in his death. Historian A. Foldeak did a monograph on Asztalos and it should be in there if anyone is interested in buying it. See near the bottom of the page:
|Jul-30-06|| ||EmperorAtahualpa: <brankat> I'm not at all looking for a conspiracy or anything. But just consider this: How big are the chances that a man dies of natural exactly in a 13-day period when also there were a lot of political killings? It just would have been nice if there was a bigger story around his death and that's why I was asking about it. I know I don't have facts, and that's why I didn't make any premature conclusions. THAT's how good a scientist I am. :) You're not accusing me of making premature conclusions, are you?|
But anyway, it's really not that important, it's not like I can't sleep at night not knowing about Dr. Asztalos' fate.
P.S.: It's ok if you call me a Westerner (because I am), but I don't get your reasoning that Westerners are eager to spot controversies. I've never regarded Westerners to be like that, and "Westerner" is a vague term to begin with. And saying that I should "move on", I don't understand that either. Obviously I did move on. Actually I would consider myself one of the better informed West-Europeans about the former Warsaw-pact countries, as I have many friends from these countries and I have visited a lot of these countries (some even frequently).
<Calli> Thank you for your sources! I found Foldeak's monograph in the catalogue of a library of which I am a member, so perhaps I will pick it up some day and read it. When that day comes, I will post my findings back on this page.
|Jul-30-06|| ||percyblakeney: According to Wikipedia Asztalos died of gas poisoning (which was a common suicide method even if that of course doesn't have to mean that it was suicide):|
|Jul-30-06|| ||euripides: <Intellectuals were more of a rarity in those days then they are now> eh ??? |
I think the elite end of the Hungarian secondary school system was legendary, by the way.
I am not sure <brankat> and <ugh> have noticed the specific suggestion <emperor> was making.
A death by gas poisoning in the middle of the Hungarian uprising in 1956 certainly merits a raised eyebrow.
|Jul-30-06|| ||mahmoudkubba: Well, first I was talking about two things the Internet American-Euro division one on one hand and the Wikipedia as a small part of it on the second hand. I even thinks that their is the possibility of my posts been sent in a wrong manner. U C I use the Simple English phrases and simple English is a known way for talking and writings. It might also called Indian English and by that I don’t mean Red Indian at all but Indian as India in South Asia. Apart from my knowledge that the holy book (with all its versions (Ishahat: Plural of Ishah: singular)) about the immigrant’s laws can be read by and through me because as far as I do remember one of these versions is in Simple Indian English, yet as far as I knows all the versions are valid each one for a special immigration case and/or for an immigrant’s nation(s).|
Apart from the suspect of sex matter(s) that been used some how on the American-European Division Internet and that is clearly known by many, Yet we have to use the same contact way(s). well may be if this Internet as a human or a creature is a good person then it is OK all the way but what abt if he/she is a bad entity?.
Well all of this started in negotiation abt the possibility of the death of the ch. Player in the Hungarian revolt, which is a big possibility of course if for this side or that side during what is called the cold war.
|Jul-31-06|| ||brankat: <EA> I apologize if my previous post may have looked perhaps a bit too sharp. Frankly, it is just that for so many years I've been listening about all sorts of conspiracy "theories" (Chess related ones, no to mention the others). After a while it does get to be tiring, indeed sickening, so I guess last night I had just a little too much of it, and perhaps overreacted.
<I don't get your reasoning that Westerners are eager to spot controversies> |
Botvinnik, Keres, Bronstein, Fischer/Curacao, Korchnoi, Karpov etc. And now a relatively minor player, Dr. Asztalos. In all of the above "cases" there has never been a single shred of solid evidence presented, to support the suspicions.
As for Dr. Asztalos, he lived in pre-WWII Yogoslavia, so I'm somewhat familiar with his case. He was to be a part of the Y. team for the 1938. Chess Olympiad, but didn't go to Argentina because of pure health. Lungs complications. In 1942, in the middle of the war he moved back to Hungary, since in Yugoslavia, because of the war he couldn't get proper medical care. The conditions were better in Hungary, there was no war there.
When he passed away he was already 67 years old and quite ill. During 13 days of the Revolt people were dying, (not counting the ones that were actually killed) just like they have been dying during any 13 days period, before and after Oct/Nov 1956.
From about the late 40s, throughout the 50s, and on, whenever something happened in an Eastern block country that seemed to be less than perfect, or not completely accounted for, immediately it gave rise to all sorts of speculations/accusations in the West. At the same time, of course, the West, mostly the US paid much less attention to it's own controversies/conspiracies/problems. Somehow they were acceptable. Times have changed since then, but the stigma remained. That is what I meant when i suggested that it was time to move on. (Not You, but all of us).
Regardless of all of the above, we are still friends! :-)
<Euripides> <A death by gas poisoning in the middle of the Hungarian uprising in 1956 certainly merits a raised eyebrow.>
People die of gas poisonong all the time. More so in times of wars, revolutions etc. Not unusual at all. Btw, Wikipedia "facts" are not always very reliable.
|Jul-31-06|| ||keypusher: <At the same time, of course, the West, mostly the US paid much less attention to it's own controversies/conspiracies/problems. Somehow they were acceptable.> Sorry, but that's just garbage. Popular garbage, oft-repeated garbage, but still garbage. I live in the US, have lived here almost my entire life, and know well that the US pays close if not morbid attention to its own controversies/conspiracies/problems, often to the exclusion of problems elsewhere. |
That many horrible things happened in Eastern Europe in the 40s and 50s is a fact, not an invention of western conspiracy theorists.
|Nov-02-07|| ||Fusilli: The discussion below is amusing, folks. People die of natural causes during periods of piece and during periods of war and turmoil. The father of a friend of mine died on 9/11/2001 in the US (Philadelphia, not NYC). I guess many would read his biography and in seeing that he died in the US on 9/11/01 would assume he was a victim of terrorism. Also, if this man had died "as a consequence" of the Hungarian revolt, it wouldn't necessarily have to be by killing. Maybe he needed urgent medical attention for a heart attack or something and medical attention was unavailable (or overwhelmed by demand). Whatever, we can all speculate, but there is no point in speculating about something (his cause of death) that should be a recorded fact somewhere anyway. I think everything started as a question our of curiosity and ended up as a West vs East political-philosophical debate. Wow! He was a fine player, wasn't he?|
|Jul-29-08|| ||BIDMONFA: Lajos Asztalos|
|Jul-29-11|| ||brankat: R.I.P. master Asztalos.|
|Jul-29-11|| ||brankat: I stopped by beacuse it was Mr.Asztalos's birthday, and then discovered that we'd had a nice little "slug-fest" happening here ages ago!|
Good old days :-)
|Jul-29-11|| ||whiteshark: 1924 (Gyor) to 1934 (Maribor) looks like his 'creative phase'.|
|Jul-29-12|| ||brankat: Happy Birthday Mr.Asztalos.|