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Mar-11-09
 | | chancho: Hey <Jim> you really enjoyed reading the back of this book the last time: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_538-FFQ4e... :-) |
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Mar-11-09 | | Jim Bartle: True it's awful, but covers are customarily prepared by editors, not authors. |
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Mar-11-09 | | Petrosianic: <RB: "...it seems like you're looking for reasons to explain the books authenticity, instead of being objective...Which is your duty as a journalist."> Not to mention his duty as a fanatic.
<My journalistic duty requires mentioning the forgery theory exists.> And also that it seems to be the prevailing opinion in the chess world. The Flat Earth Theory exists, so simply noting existence isn't really saying anything much. <By default one assumes the name of the author on the cover is sufficiently accurate. Many books are ghostwritten, especially "autobiographies" of celebrities or politicians. Do you care whether Larry Evans took dictation or polished the literary style of Fischer's M60MG ?> No, and of course we all know what "by William Shatner <WITH> Chris Kreski" means. But even then, I expect that Shatner was at the very least involved with the book, read the final draft, and gave it his imprimatur. I'm not convinced that Fischer so much as heard of this book. <Should I say 'innocent until proven guilty' or has that ceremony of innocence been drowned?> You can say it, but it applies a) in a court of law, not the court of public opinion, and b) to human beings, not literary works. Just because no one has gone to jail for the crime of forging it doesn't mean we have any obligation to regard it as genuine. <It is idiotic to expect any writer to have the same style as he had forty years earlier.> True, but it's not a blind expectation. People know that Fischer's personality and attitudes seemeed little changed since then. And of course the various con games surrounding the book (Helgi, et cetera) have left most people with little confidence in it. Is your position that it's genuine really based on nothing more than that that's the name listed on the cover? I agree that's a reasonable assumption, <other things being equal>, but other things aren't equal, and I haven't seen your full review. As a reader, I'd certainly buy one if it were available in stores, in order to judge for myself. But as a book reviewer, would you advise me to go out and pay black market prices for it? <Now, some logic: Is this a master forger at work, some genius of his craft brilliantly deceiving my naive foolishness and outwitting my critical faculties? If so, could Ed Trice be such a genius?> Beats me. I haven't read the book, so I can't judge whether it's a work of genius or not. I agree that Gothic Chess is less a new "invention" than it is a slightly reworked version of Capablanca Chess, but even if that somehow "proves" that Trice didn't write the book, it doesn't prove that Fischer did. |
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Mar-11-09 | | arthurp: Hello Lawrence,
It hasn't been mentioned too much but I hope you are seriously thinking of
publishing a book of your life and games! |
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Mar-11-09 | | parisattack: <arthurp: Hello Lawrence,
It hasn't been mentioned too much but I hope you are seriously thinking of publishing a book of your life and games!>Indeed! I became a fan after studying the chapter on IM Day in Keene's Learn from the Grandmasters. |
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Mar-11-09 | | Petrosianic: <I repeat for the nth time the book could be part Fischer, part others, including others taking over incomplete Fischer material and finishing the book.> Could be, but is there any evidence that it is? Apart from the name on the cover. It <could> be that Fischer is still alive, partying it up with Elvis in Acapulco. But I don't think so. |
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Mar-11-09 | | parisattack: <Could be, but is there any evidence that it is? Apart from the name on the cover. It <could> be that Fischer is still alive, partying it up with Elvis in Acapulco. But I don't think so.
>
Yup. I actually have the full transcription of the lessons he gave Elvis as well as the annotated games they have played. Just send me a suitcase full of $100s and you can have full rights. |
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Mar-11-09 | | Jim Bartle: ughaibu: <"As the contents of the book aren't copyrighted, one of the books fans could save us all from this nonsense by posting that content, in its entirety, on the pages of all relevant games."> I made the same point earlier, ughaibu. The other trick would be to print up a thousand copies to sell, or just make photocopied versions with spiral bindings. Then wait and see who sues. |
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Mar-11-09 | | Petrosianic: If it isn't under copyright, then nobody would sue. As a book buyer, I think the clear choice in these difficult economic times is to wait for the free .pdf version to hit the internet and save your money. On the other hand, I'm very interested in those Fischer-Elvis games, and am busy filling a suitcase with money now. I'd be done, except the local Wal-Mart ran out of Monopoly sets. |
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Mar-11-09
 | | chancho: You see Fischer in various photos with
different people while in Iceland, but no photo with the guy who said he was helping Fischer to find a publisher for his book. Curious. |
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Mar-11-09 | | Jim Bartle: I'm assuming somebody believes he owns the copyright or has a contract with the copyright holder, just didn't put it in the book. Hard to believe anybody would go to the immense amount of work involved in producing this book (it was a lot of work just to do the layout, manuscript in hand) and then just allow others to sell it or give it away. |
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Mar-11-09 | | Riverbeast: Mr. Day, what about the fact that Fischer said in a 2002 interview that he NEVER played internet chess and no longer played the 'old' chess? Even if he was lying about that, do you really think he would make himself out to be a liar by publishing one of his "anonymous internet dalliances" in 61 Memorable Games? C'mon...You're clearly an intelligent enough man and it doesn't take a 'rocket surgeon' (to borrow a phrase) to see this is a clear fraud...And not a very good one either |
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Mar-11-09 | | AnalyzeThis: <Jim Bartle: Hard to believe anybody would go to the immense amount of work involved in producing this book (it was a lot of work just to do the layout, manuscript in hand) and then just allow others to sell it or give it away. > Essentially, what you're saying is that somebody stole this from Bobby Fischer, fair and square. |
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Mar-11-09 | | Jim Bartle: That's one possibility, definitely.
But what I was really trying to say is that whoever went to the effort to print apparently just a few copies of this is NOT going to stand by quietly if somebody else starts printing and selling "pirated" copies." And to complain, those people would have to reveal their identities. |
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Mar-11-09 | | Riverbeast: <Jim Bartle>
Great idea....Let's pirate the pirates
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Mar-11-09 | | AnalyzeThis: <Jim Bartle: But what I was really trying to say is that whoever went to the effort to print apparently just a few copies of this is NOT going to stand by quietly if somebody else starts printing and selling "pirated" copies." > The moral of the story is that it's ok to steal from Bobby Fischer, but not from the thief. |
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Mar-11-09 | | ChicoChuck: If a book allegedly written by a famous figure (in this case Fischer) is offered to the public, and nobody who knew Fischer knew anything about this major project, then the default position has to be that Fischer DID NOT write the book! Big claims require big evidence. Bobby had completely and PUBLICLY disavowed "classical" chess. And he's going to spend his final months working on a book about classical chess? Harlan Ellison was right: The two most common things in the universe are hydrogen and credulity. |
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Mar-11-09 | | Jim Bartle: AT, you're going to drive me to jump off the cliff, or to play the Damiano! No, I don't think it's OK to steal, from Fischer or anybody. I'm just suggesting a strategy to bring whoever published this book into the light of day. |
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Mar-11-09 | | Petrosianic: <AT, you're going to drive me to jump off the cliff, or to play the Damiano> Jump off a cliff. It's less painful.
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Mar-11-09
 | | tpstar: I don't understand why you are all pestering <IMlday> with this controversy. Best I can tell, he was asked if the alleged M61MG was a forgery, and I'm not sure how on earth he was supposed to know that. Besides, most forgeries are pretty good; people forge prescriptions, diplomas, signatures, paintings, and sometimes it takes an expert to find it out. This attention is like asking Dick Clark if he thought Milli Vanilli was fake, and then blaming him for the deception later. What is the point? All omens point to this book project falling apart long ago, and people are only prolonging this conversation to feel better about themselves for how well they knew Bobby, or how they are defending his honor, or whatever. But until IM Day tries to sell you a book, I think all posts on his page should focus on him and not this neverending sideshow. |
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Mar-11-09 | | Jim Bartle: "This attention is like asking Dick Clark if he thought Milli Vanilli was fake, and then blaming him for the deception later." Good analogy. |
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Mar-11-09 | | Petrosianic: <This attention is like asking Dick Clark if he thought Milli Vanilli was fake, and then blaming him for the deception later.> Who's blaming him? I just want to know his reasons for thinking it real, given that a) nobody who knew Fischer in Iceland knew about it, b) it's been promoted in so many unscrupulous ways, and c) a court of law pronounced it a hoax. He must have a pretty good reason for disregarding all that, but all I heard was that the cover said so, so you should assume it's true. There's got to be more than that. |
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Mar-11-09 | | Riverbeast: <But until IM Day tries to sell you a book, I think all posts on his page should focus on him and not this neverending sideshow> The point is, IM Day has been an accomplice to this fraud (purposeful or not) by giving the book credence in his column. This can have the effect of motivating many uninitiated people (who read his column) to buy this book. Too many people in journalism take liberties, and fail to factcheck and do appropriate research, before couching their opinions as fact in print. This may be one of the reasons why Fischer didn't trust journalists! |
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Mar-11-09 | | Jim Bartle: Way to burst my bubble, Pinned Piece. All good points. So as suggested earlier, somebody should scan every page (ugh) and post it on the Internet. See if anything happens. |
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Mar-11-09 | | PinnedPiece: <Jim Bartle: Way to burst my bubble, Pinned Piece. All good points.
So as suggested earlier, somebody should scan every page (ugh) and post it on the Internet. See if anything happens.
>
Correcto...best way, easiest, simplest, and by far the most maddening to whoever instigated this situation. If any parts of M61MG quotes the original M60MG, I would think, however, the publisher of THAT book would have some standing, but why then haven't they gone after the book publishers in a tort case at this stage anyway? Joshka's suggestion that the current legit publisher is carrying out some convoluted scheme to undermine this book doesn't hold water for many reasons, principally its part of the business of publication for there to be similar books. My god, look how many cookbooks there are out there, many with the same recipes. And many authors have published similar books, but through different publishers. You don't remain in publishing if you can't deal with those facts. |
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