|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 94 OF 127 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Apr-17-14 | | Boomie: <da squeegee: Bob stacking> I believe the first to stack Bobs was The Beach Boys. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPRo... |
|
Apr-17-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Tim> Game Collection: WCC : Steinitz-Zukertort 1886 <"The negotiations were contentious."> This phrasing doesn't reflect the chronology. The narrative should be driven by the chronology. "The negotiations now dragged on" is better because the "dragging on" is what happened next after Steinitz moved to the USA. ####################
<Karpova>
I agree with your assessment, and I think this "Steinitz emigrated to the USA in late 1883.6 The negotiations now dragged on even more." is ok, because you think it is more precise? But is the "even more" actually necessary? I think that what you have already is more than sufficient: "Steinitz emigrated to the USA in late 1883.6 The negotiations now dragged on." It's up to you of course.
But again, generally speaking, the narrative should reflect the chronology as closely as possible. And in my opinion, your narrative in this draft already clearly reflects the chronology. |
|
| Apr-17-14 | | Karpova: <Jess>
It was just a thought. I don't think that the change is necessary. Let's keep it the way it is. |
|
Apr-17-14
 | | OhioChessFan: <Writer'sCrampCoach: "The negotiations now dragged on" is better because the "dragging on" is what happened next after Steinitz moved to the USA. > Is there any match where the negotiations smoothly came together? I object to the sentence on 3 grounds: 1. It's rather pointless in that it is symptomatic of every WCC negotiation. 2. It's cliche-ish.
3. The time frame issue, in particular the "now", just doesn't flow in the narrative. I really, really, really dislike it as written. |
|
| Apr-17-14 | | Karpova: <Steinitz received in March 1885 the copy of the London 'Chess Monthly' in which Zukertort complained that "negotiations with Steinitz would exhaust human patience," and then offered to play on either side of the Atlantic, ending with "If there is a mortal whom Mr. Steinitz considers worthy of his confidence, let him appoint him as his second."> (Landsberger, p. 146) |
|
| Apr-17-14 | | Karpova: <OCF>
<1. It's rather pointless in that it is symptomatic of every WCC negotiation.> It is not pointless, even <if> that was symptomatic of <every> WCC negiotiations. It is, as so often, a matter of degree. The presumption that it is and was <always> like this is uncalled for here. This invalidates also your second objection. <3. The time frame issue, in particular the "now", just doesn't flow in the narrative.> Any suggestions how to better phrase it? |
|
| Apr-17-14 | | Karpova: In C.N. 8636, Winter draws attention to British Pathé material, see the link: https://www.youtube.com/results?sea... Of interest may be for example Smyslov becoming World Champion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lm... |
|
Apr-17-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Karpova>
Brilliant collection of Pathe videos, thank you. And <Smyslov> right there on the front page getting his laurel wreath! Speaking of <Smyslov>, I've been trying to find out more about the early career of <Bronstein> with the help of the "Google Translator." This tool should be used cautiously.
In the Ukrrainian Wikipedia article on Bronstein, Google translator reveals a startling and little known fact about David Bronstein: <"in 1941 he started World War II"> |
|
| Apr-17-14 | | Boomie: <"in 1941 he started World War II"> That explains why they made him throw the match with Botflynik. |
|
| Apr-17-14 | | Boomie: - The dragged on negotiations drag on contentiously.
How about:
"The contentious negotiations continued."
Although "dragged on" implies a continuation with no end in sight, we haven't established whether the negotiations were taking longer than some standard. For that matter, we don't know if they were more or less contentious than others. Since this was the first WC match, they were in uncharted territory in a way. How did these negotiations compare to the one for the Anderssen match, for example? |
|
Apr-17-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Tim>
The draft writer has made the decision.
<"Let's keep it the way it is."> "Dragged on" is the perfect phrase for that spot.
Please devote your considerable talents to another area of that draft, or to another draft. |
|
Apr-18-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Update in our profile>: **CURRENT DRAFT UNDER INSPECTION FOR PROMOTION: Game Collection: WCC: Botvinnik-Bronstein 1951 **DUE DATE- THE DAY I WILL SUBMIT THIS DRAFT TO <Daniel>: Submission Day <<<ON HOLD UNTIL DANIEL FINISHES THE CORRECTIONS FOR FIDE World Championship Tournament (1948)>>> |
|
| Apr-18-14 | | Karpova: A good synonym for "to drag on" is worth sharing. I don't see how "contentious" fits, especially as it seems to me that it would introduce unproven implications. <Although "dragged on" implies a continuation with no end in sight, we haven't established whether the negotiations were taking longer than some standard. For that matter, we don't know if they were more or less contentious than others.Since this was the first WC match, they were in uncharted territory in a way. How did these negotiations compare to the one for the Anderssen match, for example?> Probably interesting, but completely irrelevant for our draft in question. Or any other draft in here as, of course, nowhere is a comparison to other match negotiations made (or necessary). |
|
| Apr-18-14 | | Karpova: On FIDE World Championship Tournament (1948) The small footnote hyperlinks were fixed, I hope that the sources section will follow. It doesn't seem to have been laid hands on yet. |
|
| Apr-18-14 | | Boomie: Game Collection: WCC: Botvinnik-Bronstein 1951 <After winning Saltsjöbaden Interzonal (1948), Bronstein was awarded the Soviet grandmaster title.After winning the interzonal, however, Bronstein really began to play like a world championship challenger, posting back to back shared firsts in the <USSR Championships>.> "After winning Saltsjöbaden Interzonal (1948), Bronstein was awarded the Soviet grandmaster title. Then he really began to play like a world championship challenger, posting back to back shared firsts in the <USSR Championships>." |
|
Apr-18-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Tim>
Sorry to be confusing! This is my fault. The first paragraph isn't actually written yet eh? I should have made that clear. Those are just notes up in there at the moment. Again, sorry for the confusion. I had been looking at the top of our profile and notice a "past due date" was there, and I updated it to the "reality of now." I should have added in my post in our forum that I hadn't yet finished the first paragraph. No worries, you'll have ample time to edit it when it's done. I will be able to finish it this weekend, and I'll drop a note in here when I figure I'm done. Please don't edit the first paragraph while I'm still working on it. |
|
| Apr-18-14 | | Karpova: I overhauled my draft for Game Collection: WCC: Lasker-Janowski 1910 with new information and simply post the whole new draft here. It can simply be copy&pasted in the mirror (but the links need to be included) as I started from the latest mirror draft myself. So all previous changes are in the new draft. |
|
| Apr-18-14 | | Karpova: Game Collection: WCC: Lasker-Janowski 1910 David Janowski was born in Wołkowysk, Poland (today Vawkavysk, Belarus), but later relocated to France. From the end of the 19th century onwards, he was a regular participant in strong international tournaments. 1 Among his successes are a win in the <Janowski vs. Marshall, Match 1 (1899)> and a shared first place with<Geza Maroczy> at the <Barmen Meisterturnier A (1905)>. He became known for his strong combinational skills.2 The games of his heyday were described as showing the "lion's claw" and he was well-known for his low percentage of draws. 3 After <London (1899)>, Janowski challenged world champion <Emanuel Lasker> to a match for £400 a side. Lasker accepted the challenge, 4 but the negotiations broke down when Janowski insisted on 10 games up and Lasker refused more than 8 games up.5 Financed by his wealthy patron <Leo Nardus>, in May 1909 Janowski played an exhibition match against Lasker in Paris, which ended drawn (+2 -2 =0). Enthusiastic about the outcome of the match, Nardus proposed a match for the world championship. While Lasker had no objection in principle, he had to leave France.6 They played a second exhibition match 7 in Paris from October to November, which saw Lasker emerge as the clear winner (+7 -1 =2).8 Shortly afterwards, on 12 Nov 1909, both masters signed an agreement for a title match in autumn 1910, in case of Lasker not losing his title to <Carl Schlechter>.9 Lasker defended his crown in the drawn <Lasker – Schlechter World Championship Match (1910)> in January and February, and Janowski got his shot at the title in late 1910. Janowski was eager to take revenge and claimed to have studied hundreds of games by Lasker.2 He had prepared for the match for several weeks in Ostende.10 The challenger considered the world champion's play to be weak, but his opponents lost because they tried to cash in on the victory prematurely.2 Janowski wanted to demonstrate to the world that "Lasker's game was not chess, but dominoes."2 During their title match, Lasker characterized Janowski in the following way: "Independently he searches for the beautiful, ingenious, deep and hidden. Sadly, he goes too far therein. He pays not the slightest attention to ordinariness. In fact, this gives his play a special appeal, at the same time it is also his weak spot."11 The match for the world championship was held Nov 8-Dec 8 in the Kerkau-Palast in Berlin.12 Nardus donated a prize of 5,000 Francs for the winner,10 declared to be the first to score 8 victories, with draws not counting.9 The time control was 15 moves per hour.9 The tournament director <Alfred Ehrhardt Post> let Janowski draw by lot the first move and Lasker got White in the first game, which started at 4 pm.13 The match began with Lasker winning a miniature, after Janowski blundered a piece on move 19. Janowski played for an attack in game 2,14 which was adjourned and ended drawn after resumption on the next day,15 with playing time set from 4 pm to 8 pm.14 Game 3 was a marathon game which had to be adjourned four times and Janowski defended tenaciously to salvage half a point after 101 moves.16&17 The world champion won the next two games, although he had a losing position after 11 moves in game 5.18 Janowski defended stubbornly again in game 6 to split the point after two adjournements.19 Lasker won game 7. Janowski reached a favorable position and refused a 3-fold repetition in the two times adjourned game 8, before finally losing.20&21 After losing game 9 after adjournment, Janowski took a rest day.22 Lasker also won games 10 and 11 and retained his title after only 11 games (+8 -0 =3).23 The match received limited attention from the public as Lasker had secured the copyright for the games, which therefore couldn't be printed without charge. The games were also criticized as being of low quality with Nardus' sponsorship being the only thing "grandmasterly" about the contest.12 |
|
| Apr-18-14 | | Karpova: 1 Rod Edwards, http://www.edochess.ca/players/p487... 2 "Wiener Schachzeitung", July-August 1910, p. 252. In ANNO / Österreichische Nationalbibliothek, http://anno.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/a... 3 "Wiener Schachzeitung", February 1927, pp. 29-30. In ANNO / Österreichische Nationalbibliothek, http://anno.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/a... 4 "British Chess Magazine", September 1899, p. 373
5 "British Chess Magazine", December 1899, p. 509
6 "Wiener Schachzeitung", August 1909, pp. 234-236. In ANNO / Österreichische Nationalbibliothek, http://anno.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/a... 7 Edward Winter, "Lasker v Janowsky, Paris,
1909", http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/... 8 "Wiener Schachzeitung", December 1909, pp. 410-413. In ANNO / Österreichische Nationalbibliothek, http://anno.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/a... 9 "La Stratégie", February 1910, pp. 60-61. In Edward Winter's "Chess Explorations (1)", 6 May 2008, http://en.chessbase.com/post/edward...- 10 Emanuel Lasker, "Pester Lloyd", 9 November 1910, p. 9. In ANNO / Österreichische Nationalbibliothek, http://content.onb.ac.at/cgi-conten... 11 Emanuel Lasker, "Ost und West", December 1910, p. 825. In http://www.compactmemory.de/index_p... 12 "Wiener Schachzeitung", January 1911, pp. 32-33. In ANNO / Österreichische Nationalbibliothek, http://anno.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/a... |
|
| Apr-18-14 | | Karpova: 13 Emanuel Lasker, "Pester Lloyd", 10 November 1910, p. 10. In ANNO / Österreichische Nationalbibliothek, http://content.onb.ac.at/cgi-conten... 14 Emanuel Lasker, "Pester Lloyd", 12 November 1910, p. 7. In ANNO / Österreichische Nationalbibliothek, http://content.onb.ac.at/cgi-conten... 15 Emanuel Lasker, "Pester Lloyd", 13 November 1910, p. 11. In ANNO / Österreichische Nationalbibliothek, http://content.onb.ac.at/cgi-conten... 16 Emanuel Lasker, "Pester Lloyd", 14 November 1910, p. 4. In ANNO / Österreichische Nationalbibliothek, http://content.onb.ac.at/cgi-conten... 17 Emanuel Lasker, "Pester Lloyd", 16 November 1910, p. 6. In ANNO / Österreichische Nationalbibliothek, http://content.onb.ac.at/cgi-conten... 18 Emanuel Lasker, "Pester Lloyd", 25 November 1910, pp. 8-9. In ANNO / Österreichische Nationalbibliothek, http://content.onb.ac.at/cgi-conten... 19 Emanuel Lasker, "Pester Lloyd", 23 November 1910, p. 9. In ANNO / Österreichische Nationalbibliothek, http://content.onb.ac.at/cgi-conten... 20 Emanuel Lasker, "Pester Lloyd", 1 December 1910, p. 9. In ANNO / Österreichische Nationalbibliothek, http://content.onb.ac.at/cgi-conten... 21 Emanuel Lasker, "Pester Lloyd", 3 December 1910, pp. 8-9. In ANNO / Österreichische Nationalbibliothek, http://content.onb.ac.at/cgi-conten... 22 Emanuel Lasker, "Pester Lloyd", 6 December 1910, p. 7. In ANNO / Österreichische Nationalbibliothek, http://content.onb.ac.at/cgi-conten... 23 Emanuel Lasker, "Pester Lloyd", 11 December 1910, p. 13. In ANNO / Österreichische Nationalbibliothek, http://content.onb.ac.at/cgi-conten... |
|
Apr-18-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Karpova>
Excellent, thank you.
Please look at the mirror and check that I have transferred all the new material into it properly? Game Collection: WCC: Lasker-Janowski 1910 |
|
Apr-18-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Karpova>
I know I complained about it before, but I now like your practice of starting a draft with the challenger's name and where he was born. ###################
Steinitz-Gunsberg World Championship Match (1890)
"Isidor Gunsberg was born in Budapest, Hungary in 1854." ##################
Game Collection: WCC: Lasker-Janowski 1910 "David Janowski was born in Wołkowysk, Poland (today Vawkavysk, Belarus), but later relocated to France." #########################
I am going to use this method to start the first paragraph of Game Collection: WCC: Botvinnik-Bronstein 1951. |
|
| Apr-18-14 | | Karpova: <Jess>
Game Collection: WCC: Lasker-Janowski 1910 Everything was transferred the way it should.
I just noticed a few minor points:
In the first two paragraphs is often a space between a punctuation mark and a footnote. Anbd in the last paragraph, I used a <&> instead of <,> to mark two footnotes (16 and 17, 20 and 21). |
|
| Apr-18-14 | | Karpova: Interesting occurrence:
<Player link><.> works, i. e. Carl Schlechter. But not <Player link><.><9>, which looks like that Carl Schlechter |
|
Apr-18-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Karpova>
We don't actually have to worry about spaces between a punctuation point and a note, because this is irrelevant to <crawfb5> when he changes all of the notes to HTML. On the other hand, it perhaps looks more tidy to us editors? If you want I don't mind moving the notes right next to the punctuation. ########################
The "disappearing text" happens whenever there is more than one character directly following a blue hyperlink. <Daniel> previously said there was nothing he could do about it. ########################
I wonder why you chose to use an <&> to separate notes, instead of a comma? Apologies in advance if that's what you've been doing since we started this project and I just didn't notice. I'm failing to notice a lot of things lately. I think the comma is better because it's less disruptive to the reader's attention? At any rate, that's what we already started using, and I don't really feel like asking <Daniel> to change the method, as it can be seen here in this promoted draft of FIDE World Championship Tournament (1948): <The new conditions stated that the tournament would begin in spring 1948, be played partly in The Hague and partly in Moscow, and most notably, no extra player would be added.[8,9]> I'm wondering why the <&> didn't show up in the mirror, since I just copy and pasted all of the text you posted in our forum. Hmmm... my computer better not be broken... |
|
 |
 |
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 94 OF 127 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
|
|
|