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NN vs Gioachino Greco
Miscellaneous Game (1620)  ·  French Defense: Advance. Euwe Variation (C02)  ·  0-1
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Given 269 times; par: 99 [what's this?]

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sac: 21...Nxd4 PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Jan-01-05  Jaymthegenius: Oh I forgot 21...Nxd4?? I forget alot.
Jan-01-05  sneaky pete: The knight sacrifice seems correct, white's extra piece (Bg5) is completely out of play. Jtg's improvement 24... Bxb1?? however loses to 25.Qxd4 .. etc.
Jan-01-05  Milo: How about 37.gxh5 ?

I'm no expert, but 37...Bxh5 38.Kh2 Kg6 (38...Kh6 39.h4) 39.Kg3 seems like it ought to hold, to me.

Jan-03-05  Jaymthegenius: 37...gxh5 gives white doubled pawns,

I mean 24...Qxc3 I forgot the hanging queen.

Mar-08-05  Autoreparaturwerkbau: At least black put Greco at the "real" [ok we knew the winner would be Greco anyways didn't we? :)] test in this game.

By the way it is by margin of 14 moves the longest of Greco's "73"wins-"0"losses games, so was in some trouble hehehe

Mar-08-05  soberknight: White's play in the endgame was positively awful. 39 h4 would block the pawns and make it much harder for Black to get a K-side passed pawn. Also, 40 Bb4 Bg2 41 Bd2 Bxh3 42 Kf2 Kf5 43 Kg1 Kg4 44 Kh2 might have delayed the loss a little longer.
Mar-17-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  InspiredByMorphy: <waddayaplay> <if white had tried 11.b4 I don't think black would have had much play.> I am of the opinion that black, much like with 21. ...Nxd4 would sac the knight for two pawns, an attack, and two connected passed pawns with 11. ...Nxb4 .
Mar-17-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  InspiredByMorphy: <Jaym> <My Rating on chess21.com is 2167, so I think I have an idea of how to make Greco's game even better.> If your not stating an official USCF or FIDE rating your not going to gain credibility. Its not enough to say such a thing yet not provide analysis to back your words. How would you have done better? If 21. ...Nxd4 wasent sound than where is your response to prove it? <Anyone analyse this game into a computer, then it would say it is VERY flawed!> What is chess without mistakes? Besides that, and more importantly, computers are very flawed themselves. Remember that a human being programmed any chess program you play.
Mar-17-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  InspiredByMorphy: <soberknight> <39 h4 would block the pawns and make it much harder for Black to get a K-side passed pawn.> I too at first thought 39.h4 looked better but after 39.h4 Kf5 the threat is 40. ...Kg4 attacking the undefended h pawn. If 39.h4 Kf5 40.Kg3 Ke4 works the king toward the passed pawn on the b file.
Apr-02-05  Jaymthegenius: Greco showed some outstanding endgame tecnique for the 17th century, white even defended in this game!!!! Defense wasnt even known of in that time! Grecos greatness shines at around move 27, securing the passed pawn.
Dec-13-05  Jaymthetactician: This game is actually not that bad, but 11...bxd4 is better as there is the other pawn, though Greco shown that 11...exd4 is playable and 17...Na5?? hands white an advantage with 18.Be4 As it closes all arguments. My computer is currently analysing 25 games, I am doing a comparison, I took this game, along with

Greco vs NN, 1620

Greco vs NN, 1620

Along with

Larsen vs Deep Blue, 1993

Some Deep Blue games not in this database (In 1993 an IM exploited a blunder by Deep Blue viciously being down a rook in a scotch game)

Also some Steinitz games,

And Morphy vs. Anderssen.
And some of my game collections.

However don't get the impression Greco's stronger then Deep Blue or Steinitz, in spite of Deep Blues ? and ?? marks and being corrected more then Greco. (We do have time trouble nowadays, and Greco has opponents that failed to exploit his mistakes) Also a 1/2 1/2 with Steinitz vs. Bird I really like Birds opening in that game with

1.d4 f5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e3 Nf6
5.Bd3 Nc6 6.Ne2 O-O 7.O-O Bxc3 8.bxc3 b6 9.f3 Bb7

Dec-13-05  Jaymthetactician: Oh, I found that game here!

Steinitz vs Bird, 1899

May-11-06  Runemaster: I love this game. The play around move 27 is particularly interesting.
Sep-29-07  realbrob: I'm glad I found a game in which Greco reached the endgame - usually he mates the opponent around move 15! They went on playing until move 50, but in my opinion after 32..Bxb1 the game is over. Greco's outside passed pawn gives him a winning endgame, even though the presence of opposite colours bishops could mix things up a bit. Anyway there was no need to use the outside passed pawn because NN (who was a good player if you consider they were in the 16th century) wasn't so good at playing endgames.

It's funny to see Greco (1600-1634) playing the Euwe variation of the French!

Nov-15-08  gambitfan: gtm hetero bishop endgame +1

a nice bishop endgame !

Sep-21-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  Gypsy: From http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/...

Jeremy Silman (Los Angeles, CA, USA) informs us that he has been studying the games of Gioacchino Greco (1600-circa 1634) with increasing admiration:

‘There are many games which show Greco toying with his hopelessly over-matched opponents, and one gains the impression that he was a master of tactics and of open games, and that he was so far beyond other players of his time that it was, in effect, a case of a grandmaster versus players rated between 1000 and 1800. Once in a while, Greco would face someone who could fight back, which allows us to see Greco’s positional skills. It is possible that some, or even all, of the games were fabricated, but even if they were inventions they still show a chess understanding centuries ahead of his time.

< 11. bxc4>

(Black has to recapture the pawn on c4. Either choice is playable, but one stands out above the other.) <11…dxc4> (Breaking the old “always capture towards the center” rule. This gives Black far more to work with than the pedestrian 11...bxc4. With 11...dxc4, Black creates a home on d5 for a knight, opens up the a8-h1 diagonal for his queen (and potentially for his light-squared bishop too) and, most importantly, creates a queen’s-side majority of pawns. This means that Black, whenever he chooses to do so, can make a passed pawn by ...b4.) ...>

Jan-05-10
Premium Chessgames Member
  David2009: NN vs Greco, 1620: NN played very well (game 73) until he blundered at move 37:


click for larger view

Now 37 g5?? surrenders the white squares: instead 37.Kf2 holds: e.g. 37...Be4 38.Kg3 Kg6 39.Kh4 Bf3 40.Kg3 with a draw.

<Jan-01-05 Milo: How about 37.gxh5? I'm no expert, but 37...Bxh5 38.Kh2 Kg6 (38...Kh6 39.h4) 39.Kg3 seems like it ought to hold, to me>. This line seems to lose: the BK penetrates e.g. 37.gxh5 Bxh5 38.Kh2 Kg6 39.Kg3 Kf5. Alternatively 37.gxh5 Bxh5 38.Kf2 Kg6 39.Ke3 Kf5 40.Bf8 g6 41.Be7 Bd1 42.Bf8 Bc2 43.Be7 Be4 44.Bf8 Bg2 45.h4 Kg4 46.Be7 Bd5


click for larger view

and White (to play) is in zugzwang.

In opposite-coloured Bishop endings, the defender needs to contest the squares covered by the attacking Bishop with his Pawns. To do this safely, the defender should not move Pawns without a clear reason. For example 34 g4! was correct (otherwise the BK marches in) as was 36 h3!. White needs to contest the White squares, posting all white Pawns on Black squares is hopeless.

On-line link to the position at move 37 to explore these variations: http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-t.... You are white, drag and drop the move you want to make. Enjoy!

Jan-05-10  ounos: From a cursory look, it seems that NN missed a win with 27. Be7


click for larger view

Blocking the queen-side pawns. The point being 27. ...Qxe7 28. Qxd3:


click for larger view

May-21-10  Arbiter58: <David2009: NN played very well (game 73) until he blundered at move 37: Now 37 g5?? surrenders the white squares: instead 37.Kf2 holds: e.g. 37...Be4 38.Kg3 Kg6 39.Kh4 Bf3 40.Kg3 with a draw>

NN had no good move at this time any more. 37 Kf2 hxg4 38 hxg4 Bxg4 wins a pawn and black has two pawns left and right running. And the white squares are of course also open.

Jun-21-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  OBIT: Ah, excellent... I'm trying to find examples of modern positional play against the currently fashionable 5...Bd7 in the hypermodern 3...c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nf3 continuation of the Advanced French. Oh, wait, this game was played in 1620.
Jun-22-11  Llawdogg: Nice endgame play by Greco.
Dec-22-11  thomastonk: David2009 wrote that 37. gxh5 seems to lose, but this is not correct. White's plan for a draw is simple: bring the king to e3, and if the black king is close to the white pawns play alternately Be7 and Bd6; both moves prevent a successfull g5. If the black king tries to reach the b-pawn via e1, then avoid this by Bb4 and Bc3. Black cannot make any progress. White's h pawn is not needed for this plan and there is no zugzwang.

Of course, 37. g5 is a mistake, but it is no capital blunder as some people assume. The decisive mistake is in fact 42. Bf8. Instead 42. g6, which could also been played one move before, holds a draw by the method described above.

Feb-04-12  fokers13: Actually I see everyone so far has missed the real blunder which was the cause of all of white's troubles which is none other than 27.Nb3?

Instead i almost immediately noticed a very nice little tactical shot which brings the dark squared bishop to the defense and thus maintains the balance.

27.Be7!! and if the bishop is taken 28.Qxd3! and black can't hope to advance his pawns.

However i got to hand it to both of these players as quite a few have pointed out already white defended valiantly and Greco made a brave intuitive sac.

Feb-04-12  thomastonk: <fokers13> Nice to see that someone looks at this old game! I have analysed all stages some time ago, but only presented the drawing idea for the ending so far.

You write of "the real blunder", but it is only one mistake of many in this game. I give some examples starting with the knight sac, but first let me remark that we do not know who played this game, so I will speak about White and Black, but not of Greco.

21.. Nxd4? is maybe brave, but not very strong against a player with better defensive skills. Instead 21.. Re8, which prevents Be7 is a good preparation move for the sac and for other continuations as well. Black is clearly better then.

23. Kh1? is another mistake. Much better is 23.Qf2, of course.

23... b4 is slightly better than 23... Be4, and 24.Qd2 could be much better than 24.Qc3, but that is all quite complicated.

26... Rc8? is a serious mistake. Much better is 26... Ra8 with good winning chances.

27.Be7! is much better than 27.Nb3? as you wrote, but is White really lost after this mistake? After 27. Nb3 cxb3 we always get an ending with bishops of opposite color, where Black is a pawn up, but, so I think, it is a draw. But nevertheless you could be right calling 27.Nb3? decisive, maybe after 27.. Qa3. I would enjoy to share more ideas, if you like.

Feb-04-12  fokers13: Yes you are indeed correct in both your assessments of Qa3 being superior to the text and probably winning(i posted my comment with that move in mind).I was immensely glad to get a response to my kibitz so soon no less and thus i'd like to add about your other points that after scrutinising the game more deeply these are my conclusions on the game:

While by no means gamebreaking i intensely dislike white's 9.axb5? since the only purpose it serves is opening up the a-file which can only be used by black.A simple developing move like Be2 should be much better. I also fail to see the point of 15..Bxg5 which trades the black squared bishop which could serve in the advancing of the b e stationed in e4 but who really hathreatening once stationed in e4 but who really has no s play 0-0 in his stead.into.I think i'd rather play 0-0 in his stead. 19.f4? as well as the following Q moves are nice(?) little lemons weakening white's castle and wasting time allowing the black knight invasion.19.Qg4 would have been more consistent with white's play and should keep the equilibrium. I find myself mostly agreeing with you on the 21..Nxd4 move.While i still believe it retains a small advantage for black(one that might not be enough for him to win though)Re8 as suggested seems indeed much better.23.Qf2 is also interesting leading to an opposite colored bishop ending in which white should hold the draw.While 23.b4 also seems promising i believe white can once again hold the draw by no means an easy task though i don't doubt this kind of endgame requires a lot of precision. Furthermore,24.Qc3? while seemingly harmless tangles up the white pieces while 24.Qd2 allows a little nice knight maneuver c3-d1-b2 which could serve to blockade the c-pawn once again as well as allow the bishop to return through h4-e1(thanks to the knight no longer being on d2 which would block the aforementioned bishop).

Sadly i have to go for now but hopefully i'll be back soon to share my thoughts on the rest of the game.

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