< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Feb-12-14|| ||agb2002: Black has a bishop for a knight.
White threatens 30.Qxd5.
Black can attack the white king with 29... Bxf4:
A) 30.gxf4 Rxf4+
A.1) 31.Kg1 Rg4+ 32.Qg2 (32.Kh1 Qf3+ 33.Qg2 Qxg2#) 32... Rxg2+ - + [Q+2P vs R+N].
A.2) 31.Kg2 Rg4+ 32.Kh1 (32.Kh3 Qh5#) 32... Qf3+ 33.Qg2 Qxg2#.
A.3) 31.Kg3 Qg6+ 32.Kxf4 (32.Kh3 Qg4#) 32... Qh6+ followed by 33... Qxd2 - + [Q+2P vs R+N].
A.4) 31.Ke2 Qh5+ 32.Kd3 (32.Ke3 Qf3#) 32... Rd4+ 33.Kc2 (33.Ke3 Qg5+, etc.) 33... Rxd2+ 34.Kxd2 Qxh2+ - + [Q+3P vs R+N].
A.5) 31.Ke3 Rf3+ 32.Ke2 Rf2+ 33.Kd1 Rxd2+ - + [Q+2P vs R+N].
B) 30.Qxd5 Rxb2+
B.1) 31.Re2 Bxg3+ 32.Ke3 (32.Kxg3 Qxd5+ 33.Re8+ Kf7 34.Nxd5 Kxe8 - + [R+2P vs N]) 32... Rxe2+ 33.Kxe2 Qxd5 34.Nxd5 Bxh2 - + [B+3P vs N].
B.2) 31.Kg1 Qxd5 32.Nxd5 Bd2 with an extra pawn and the better ending.
C) 30.Re8+ Qxe8 31.gxf4 (31.Qxf4 Rxb2+) 31... d4 - + [R+P vs N].
|Feb-12-14|| ||FSR: Yeah, I kind of figured that White must have missed 31...Qg6+! Obviously if White had played 32.Qxd5! it wouldn't have been too exciting to see if Black could grind out a win in the ending, so this would never have been POTD.|
|Feb-12-14|| ||diagonalley: i managed to get the game line up to 30.... RxP+ but confess to not having analysed 31.K-N3 - which (fortunately) is still a win for black. good puzzle|
|Feb-12-14|| ||patzer2: Interesting bits of history in the biographies of these two players. Both had opening variations named after them (i.e. "Moller Attack" in the Giuoco Piano (C54) with 9.d5; and the "Englund Gambit" 1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 Qe7 4.Qd5).|
|Feb-12-14|| ||FSR: Both of these guys have opening lines named after them:|
The Moeller Attack in the Giuoco Piano, 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Nc3!? Nxe4 8.0-0! and
The Englund Gambit, 1.d4 e5? Englund was by no means the inventor of this opening, but he sponsored a thematic tournament at which it was mandatory, and died shortly thereafter, whereupon his name stuck to it.
|Feb-12-14|| ||rickycota: Could not solve this, tell me that goes after 30.Qxd5?|
|Feb-12-14|| ||FSR: <rickycota> As people have said previously, White should have played 30.Qxd5! (instead of 30.gxf4?, which loses). Then Black has nothing better than 30...Rxb2+ 31.Kg1 Qxd5 32.Nxd5 Bd6. Black would be a pawn up with good winning chances, but there's still a lot of fight left.|
|Feb-12-14|| ||Nick46: <FSR: <rickycota> As people have said previously...> Well explained, thank you. Yes, Englund would have had to dig deeper in this case in order to excavate a victory.|
|Feb-12-14|| ||morfishine: I figured <29...Bxf4> is the best, if not only way to make progress from here. My main concern was 30.Qxd5 which has to be best for White (grabbing a pawn and pinning the Black Queen). However after 30...Rxb2+ 31.Kg1 Qxd5 32.Nxd5 Bd2 Black has a dangerous passed pawn headed for <c1>|
While I did not think 30...gxf4 was a safe option, I didn't see 31...Qg6+ followed by the Queen skewer (I guess my diagonal visualization took the day off). That was a nice follow up to an inaccuracy by White
|Feb-12-14|| ||dufferps: Along with others, I see the success of 29 ... Bxf4 largely dependent on white playing 30.gxf4 rather than moving his Queen (I've been looking at 30.Qe2, but other Queen moves might serve even better).
A good "puzzle" might have been 31....?, where Englund shrewdly moved ... Qg6+, setting up a skewer on the next move.|
|Feb-12-14|| ||Oxspawn: There is a theme this week of things not being what they seem. The other theme is I have not been able to sort these out - but then that's a theme most weeks.|
|Feb-12-14|| ||mel gibson: I made move 30 Qxd5 & played it on DR4 64 bit at 5 seconds per move.|
Black checkmates white at move 72.
The black passed pawn on the c file
as Morfishine says - causes White a lot of grief but
he loses the pawn & gains 2 black passed pawns on the g & h files.
Black has an easy game out of it.
|Feb-12-14|| ||Cheapo by the Dozen: My initial notes were:
I'm finding this hard.
Several Black tries are shot down by Qxd5, forcing a queen exchange or worse (in some lines much worse). And 29 ... d4 -- with the idea of ... Qxa2 and ... Rxb2 -- runs into:
29 ... d4
30 Ne4 Qxa2
31 Nxd6 Rxb2
Nor am I having productive ideas about getting rid of the b-pawn and pushing Black's passers.
I must admit that I didn't count pawns properly, and in particular overlooked Rxb2+ as a Zwischenzug.
Also, in this line, I missed and indeed am still missing what Black does vs. a simple 31 Kg1.
|Feb-12-14|| ||David2009: Missed it. I looked at the Bishop sacrifice (the Rook sacrifice loses quickly to Qxd5) but could not refute 21.Kg3 - I missed the skewer protecting the R on f4.|
click for larger view
J Moeller vs F Englund, 1903 Black 23...?
|Feb-12-14|| ||morfishine: <mel gibson> Nice job working deeper from the position!|
|Feb-12-14|| ||kevin86: Black gives a bishop to open the game like a can opener.|
|Feb-12-14|| ||MostlyWatch: Working on my algorithm for solving puzzles.
1. Count shows material approx. even.
2. Black is advanced farther forward.
3. 2 white pawns, 1 black pawn and the black bish are undefended.
4. If it were white's move, he could do Nxd5, a3, Qxd5, h4, Kg2, Ke2, Ne4, etc.
5. But it isn't white's move. Black can do Bxf4, Rxf4, Qxf4, g6, g5, h6, h5, a5, Qh5, etc.
6. Having gone thru all these possibilities, the next step is to meditate. Let the unconscious mind sort it all out and find the golden glowing path!
Chess is seen by a human as a geometry problem. It's seen by a computer as a decision tree search problem. This is why we hate computers.
The focal point f4 attracts my attention. 3 black things are attacking the pawn, only 2 defending it. The old wisdom from my big brother when I was a child was "don't start something you can't finish." If black initiates battle at that point, he can finish it. Nominally, they would both throw in the less valuable stuff first.
29 .. Bxp
30 pxB Rxp
31 QxR QxQ
This takes a little squinting. I've seen a rating system where the pawn is worth 1 unit of value, the bishop 3 or 4, the rook 5, the queen 9. In that system, white has lost 11 points, black has lost 8 or 9. So black might well consider going for it. The problem is white can bail out of the battle any time, and the material he's throwing in at first is much less valuable than what black's throwing in. So if white quits at some point, he gains material advantage.
This is exactly what Moeller did. However, from that point, the decision tree branches wildly and I don't know how to tackle that problem.
Grabbing the rook with the king was a nifty move until the next move, when you get that heart-sinking feeling. Having lost his queen white looks for the touchdown anyway but it's just a little out of reach.
As a player of far lesser skill than most here, I should have offered this comment earlier in the discussion. Pieces of less value should be thrown into the fight first.
|Feb-12-14|| ||BOSTER: I hope that < Gypsy >can answer all <why>. |
So, <why > white didn't play 29.Qe8+ if Qxe8 30.Rxe8+ Kf7 31.Re2.
|Feb-12-14|| ||Gypsy: < BOSTER: I hope that < Gypsy >can answer all <why>.|
So, <why > white didn't play 29.Qe8+ if Qxe8 30.Rxe8+ Kf7 31.Re2. >
That is what I probably would have played in the position.
Clearly, White wanted to preserve his Q. Clearly, White was not aware of the skewer. But, to me, White Q is not the stronger of the two queens on the board. So I would be rather hesitant to play the <29.Qe2> and compound tie my Q down to protection of the b2-pawn.
As far as the endgame goes, Black has spatial compensation for more broken up pawns, but probably no more. The game may continue <32...d4 33.Nd1 Be7 34.b3 Ke8 35.Nb2 Kd7>. I'd say that neither side has to fear this position.
|Feb-12-14|| ||BOSTER: <Gypsy >. Thanks for answer.|
|Feb-12-14|| ||whiteshark: L♕DO combo|
|Feb-12-14|| ||M.Hassan: "Medium/Easy"
Black to play 29...?
<if 30.gxf4 Rxf4+ 31.Kg1 Rg4+ 32.Kh1 Qf3+ 33.Qg2 Qxg2#>
Black gains a pawn and this is as far as I can see.
Looks like my line is playable longer for Black than the line played!
|Feb-12-14|| ||PJs Studio: Medium easy? Not without seeing Qg5+. This puzzle is a little harder than two stars ;)|
|Feb-12-14|| ||Patriot: Material is even.
I would play 29...Bxf4 here:
30.gxf4 Rxf4+ 31.Kg2 Rg4+ 32.Kh1 d4
30.gxf4 Rxf4+ 31.Kg3 Qg6+ 32.Kxf4 Qh6+ and 33...Qxd2
30.gxf4 Rxf4+ 31.Kg3 Qg6+ 32.Kh3 Qg4#
30.Qxd5 Rxb2+ 31.Kg1 Qxd5 32.Qxd5 Nxd5 33.Bh6
I think this works.
|Feb-12-14|| ||Patriot: My first line was wrong <30.gxf4 Rxf4+ 31.Kg2 Rg4+ 32.Kh1 d4> 32...Qf3+ wins easily. I'm not sure why I didn't see this, but perhaps I still saw the rook on f4 or something.|
On my last line, I screwed up the moves a bit. It should finish <32.Nxd5 Bh6>. It's more accurate to play 32...Bd6, mostly because the bishop is on a more active square controlling two diagonals instead of one. I considered this and wondered why I should play this if the bishop is only going to be harassed by 33.Re6.
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