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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 5 OF 5 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Apr-10-15 | | Petrosianic: <A.T PhoneHome>: <Before I registered here, I went through quite a few games and read the kibitzing and I saw him kibitz on many of those games so I knew his stance before I posted here> Yeah, but you seem to actually know something about the events that transpired. The question isn't really about stances so much as about ability (or lack of ability) to discuss them intelligently. If you want to waste your time, go ahead, I just didn't want you to be taken off guard. |
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| Apr-10-15 | | A.T PhoneHome: <Petrosianic> Thank you for the first statement, seeing it's a compliment! And it's not necessarily wasting time. After all, I am not disrespecting Fischer or anyone for that matter. If my posts on this subject matter weren't of constructive manner, I'd be wasting my time. |
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Oct-14-15
 | | offramp: When you play through these games it seems to be Kortschnoi defending bad position after bad position, right the way through except for the 2 games he won. Karpov really made only 2 bad moves: 40.Nf1 in Karpov vs Korchnoi, 1981 and 31...Ne1+ in Korchnoi vs Karpov, 1981. Karpov was on top form and would have beaten anyone in the world. |
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| Oct-14-15 | | Petrosianic: Yes, this match is very different from 1978. Korchnoi is now over 50, and the Career Renaissance he had in the 70's is winding down. But even so, Karpov's blunder at the end of Game 6 made the match seem closer than it really was. But if not Korchnoi, then who? Had Huebner won the Candidates Final, would he have done any better? Or Portisch or Polugaevsky, or a 9-year retired Fischer, or a not-yet-ready Kasparov? Really, there just wasn't anybody in 1981 to give a really good challenge. |
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Oct-14-15
| | offramp: <Petrosianic> Yes, Hübner, I think, would have been annihilated 6-0 by Karpov. The only person capable of putting up resistance in 1981 was Kortschnoi. He as annihilated. |
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| Oct-14-15 | | Howard: Portisch would have put up stiffer resistance than Huebner would have, notwithstanding the upset Huebner scored in his 1980 candidates match. Given Korchnoi's vast match experience--including two previous matches against Karpov--he really was the best qualified to challenge Karpov in 1981. |
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| Oct-14-15 | | Nerwal: Tal was undefeated in 1981 after a disastrous 1980. At least it would have been an entertaining match. It's a pity so many Karpov - Tal games were quick draws. |
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Oct-14-15
 | | plang: As much as I love Tal I don't think Tal would have had any chance against Karpov in 1981 (even the Tal of 1960 versus the Karpov of 1981 would not have been close in my opinion) |
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| Oct-19-15 | | Howard: As Benko pointed out in Chess Life back in 1980, the "deaths of his (Tal) mother and brother added to his emotional burden" in 1980. |
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| Jan-08-17 | | The Boomerang: A motivated Fischer would've killed Karpov and ALL his "red carpet" "advisors" ...." Puth myth fueled by your Fischer fever....it's how you sell Bobby.... So wait, Korchnoi has an equal score against Fischer but would have stood no chance is that the logic?... I read somewhere Korchnoi gave the match up in 1971 as Russian authorities wanted the stronger player to play Fischer out of Korch and Tigran with Tigran accepting the challenge lol. Karpov and obviously kasparov would have been a huge test for Fischer, botht hese guys would kill the same competition Bobby has 70-71 easily, you do know that Kasparov had a 15-1 record against Korchnoi!! And Karpov 14-2 over Spassky!! |
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| Jan-08-17 | | The Boomerang: Geez even Karpov said that '71 match Tigran and Petrosian looked fishy..... Obviously Efim Geller or Korchnoi would have been a better match for Bobby due t their personal records, with Geller even having a positive record over Fischer. Fischer was raised to the highest pedestal of all time, after his 70-72 run not even God would beat Fischer is that correct? |
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| Apr-05-24 | | mk volkov: "I should apologize to Karpov. Until this time I treated him as a precise chess worker. In Merano his genius had appeared. Things that he does can be compared to Capablanca's playing during the peak of his highest glory. I treat Karpov as one of the best players in chess history." - M. Najdorf |
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| Apr-05-24 | | Petrosianic: <The Boomerang: I read somewhere Korchnoi gave the match up in 1971 as Russian authorities wanted the stronger player to play Fischer out of Korch and Tigran with Tigran accepting the challenge lol.> If you'd played over the games of the match, you'd have seen that that wasn't true lol. |
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| Apr-05-24 | | Cassandro: All these allegations of collusion, rigged games, orders "from the above" on who were designated to win matches, etc. in the Soviet Union, 99% of it is hogwash. Never proven. If there was any real truth behind any of these allegations, you would expect something remotely substantial to have come out at this point, no? Remember, after the dissolution of the USSR a lot of former "state secrets" did get declassified, intentionally leaked, or became public in some form or the other (like the Mitrokhin Archive for instance). But: perception is everything. I guess most people here are convinced that the Russians cheated in any number of ways, even if the evidence, or lack thereof one could say, says otherwise. |
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| Apr-05-24 | | Petrosianic: <All these allegations of collusion, rigged games, orders "from the above" on who were designated to win matches, etc. in the Soviet Union, 99% of it is hogwash. Never proven.> Never even plausible. For proof of that, just play over the final game of the match. Korchnoi as White, absolutely threw the kitchen sink at Petrosian to try to equalize the score. In the end, the attack backfired, and, when he was about to adjourn in a losing position, Korchnoi said "I could resign here or we could agree a draw". Petrosian said "Of course, a draw". People who are taking a dive don't play like that. They play like Matulovic did against Taimanov. AFTER the match, Korchnoi claimed to have said that he couldn't beat Fischer. But I don't believe he said it at the time. Korchnoi was too good and too scrappy to write himself off that way. But Korchnoi had an unfortunate tendency to flipflop on such things for the sake of expediency. For example, before the Candidates Final he and Karpov had agreed to band together and oppose the unfair 9-9 tie clause, whichever of them became challenger. After losing the match, Korchnoi changed his tune on that. 9-9? Perfectly okay. |
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| Apr-06-24 | | mk volkov: <The Boomerang: I read somewhere Korchnoi gave the match up in 1971 as Russian authorities wanted the stronger player to play Fischer out of Korch and Tigran with Tigran accepting the challenge lol.> haha)
Korchnoi didn't become a world champion because he studied and trained playing chess without teachers or trainers (due to his bad character). He could become a champion in 1963 instead of Petrosian, or in 1966-69 instead of Spassky. But every time he was beaten by either of them. When he enhanced himself in 1974-77, it was too late. |
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| Apr-06-24 | | Petrosianic: I have doubts as to whether Korchnoi could have beaten Botvinnik. Maybe. But nowhere near sure. Keres either, his lifetime score against Botvinnik wasn't great, even ignoring 1948. Probably Petrosian and Geller are the only ones who could have beaten Botvinnik in 1963. In addition to Fischer, Geller seems to have had Botvinnik's number to a certain extent. |
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| Apr-07-24 | | mk volkov: I'll clarify: Korchnoi could become a champion in 1963-69, if he studied chess with teachers, like Spassky with Bondarevsky, for example. Real Korchnoi in 1963-69 was strong, but not enough strong to defeat Spassky or Petrosian. Petrosian's teacher was Ebralidze. |
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Apr-07-24
 | | Sally Simpson: I think (and it is just my opinion) that Geller, Keres, Korchnoi or even Fischer would have beaten Botvinnik in 1963. Botvinnik tired badly in the latter stages of the 1963 match and just gave up. (last two games 10 move draws.) He had done his bit and aged (no crime in that) he even declined to take his spot in the candidates. Before the match there was talk of Botvinnik not defending his title, though that was possibly mind games from Botvinnik or he may have been sulking because his rematch clause had been taken away from him. But FIDE were quick of the mark in arranging the Geller - Keres match just in case Botvinnik declined to defend his title so someone believed him. |
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| Apr-07-24 | | Cassandro: <Sally S.> Mind games? I doubt he resorted to cheap ploys like that. Contrary to what some may believe, Botvinnik seems to have been straight as an arrow in most of his dealings in chess - and outside of it. And a person of the utmost integrity. All of the rumors about him being favored by the ruling chess/political elites in the USSR are simply untrue. Actually, there is very little evidence for him receiving preferential treatment, and if he did, there is nothing to suggest it was of his own volition - quite the contrary - no matter the innuendos from other Soviet players like Bronstein (a person of more questionable integrity IMO), or from outside the USSR, like the paranoid Fischer's many baseless accusations, for example. |
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| Apr-07-24 | | mk volkov: <Sally Simpson < I think (and it is just my opinion) that Geller, Keres, Korchnoi or even Fischer would have beaten Botvinnik in 1963. >> I don't think so, and here is why.
Tigran Petrosian recalled: to play against Botvinnik were even harder than against Fischer. "There were very unpleasant feeling of inevitability. Once I talked to Keres, told him that and compared Botvinnik to a bulldozer, which sweeps away everything in his path. Keres smiled and answered: "Imagine how we played with him when he was younger." Also, Botvinnik even at the age of 57 (!!) could go to a top tournament and score 9/13 without any loss (Monte Carlo 1968). No grandmaster has this skill. |
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Apr-07-24
| | Sally Simpson: Hi Cass,
I did say it was my opinion. At least you appear not to disagree with him losing the title to the other four in 1963. Fischer, yes a few were baseless, but his Curacao 1962 outburst came after B.H. Wood mentioned in CHESS how many players and journalists were up in arms over the Petrosian-Keres-Geller pact. Fischer brooded on it for a while then hit the press. (I got around to knocking out a blog and mentioned the candidates by introducing the female player Candy Dates trying to get a match v Dame Liren.) https://www.redhotpawn.com/chess-bl... ) |
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| Apr-07-24 | | Cassandro: <Sally S.> Nice coloring of the cartoon! I'm looking forward to see some of Candy Dates' games. Should be interesting :) <At least you appear not to disagree with him losing the title to the other four in 1963.> It's hard to say. No doubt that he was past his prime at that point, so you're probably right. <mk.volkov> has a point, though; Botvinnik was still very strong, but a WC match is even physically more exhausting than a tournament, I think, Lasker also had some great tournaments at an advanced age, right? And Smyslov, too, long after they had lost the WC title they could still do well in tournaments even though winning matches was beyond them (well, Smyslov came rather close to get a new WC match at some point, I think). |
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Apr-07-24
| | Sally Simpson: Hi Cass,
The original look grim in b/w and it only took a few minutes. Yes Botvinnik was still a good player but without the 'Botvinnik Rule' as the other Soviet players called it, as a cushion and him getting older v hungry younger players he would have found it difficult v any of them. Of the five Petrosian, for him, was the worse player to meet. There was a time when nobody could play against him. |
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| Apr-07-24 | | Petrosianic: <mk volkov>: <Also, Botvinnik even at the age of 57 (!!) could go to a top tournament and score 9/13 without any loss (Monte Carlo 1968). No grandmaster has this skill.> Well, Reshevsky... And Smyslov won two Candidates Matches in his 60's... And we won't even mention Lasker... |
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 5 OF 5 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
The headline of the tournament again largely centered on the political issues. Korchnoi's
wife and son were still in the Soviet Union. His son was promised to be released to join his
father in exile if he gave up his passport. When he did so he was promptly drafted into the
Russian army. Korchnoi took the opportunity of the match to publicize the situation of his
wife and son, drafting an open letter to the Soviet government to release them both. This
continuing effort likely led to his dismal performance as Karpov swept to victory in what
was dubbed the "Massacre in Merano".
