< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 19 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Apr-04-04 | | ruylopez900: <acrice> how can you call the Kings Gambit a stupid opening??? Its perfectly sound and has been proven to give entertaining games in which both sides have chances to win! |
|
Apr-04-04 | | acirce: Of course both sides have chances to win. 1. a3 is also a "sound" opening that gives both sides chances to win. Neither 1. a3 nor the King's Gambit is unsound in the meaning that black turns out better. But they are both unsound in the meaning that there is no reason for white to deviate from the normal lines that usually give him a tiny edge because of the advantage of the first move. |
|
Apr-06-04 | | fred lennox: When someone asked Spassky why he played the King Gambit he replied that he felt it didn't give white much an advantage but no less so than the Roy Lopez. The King Gambit bargins "A pawn for two tempo and a little more central control." If white keeps the initiative black has say 1/4 point advantage. Not enough to win but through middle game complexities- as Tal wrote, "full-blooded struggles that are absolutely without any mistakes are only to be found in distant interplanetary tournaments..." The King Gambit seems to say "forget about playing for safe opening advantages, let's jump to the middle game and be tactical about it." |
|
Apr-06-04 | | fred lennox: Black has the advantage of having the white king somewhat exposed. This is often offset by black king being somewhat exposed, by 0-0-0 and by queen exchange. I reccomend, for what it's worth, anyone under 1600 to learn the king gambit for three reasons. 1) it's fun 2) it will improve tactical skills 3) you'll learn to defend your king with economy, an important skill for improving. Even when white does win his king is often harrased. Also, as you get better, you'll improve to defend other weak spots in your position with economy. |
|
Apr-26-04 | | paultopia: Hi there. I'm an addicted king's gambit player, but one defense is giving me a bit of trouble. 4. ... Bg4?! (Usually in the Fisher defense, or sometimes in the 2. ... d6 declined which often gets transposed into the Fisher defense). I almost always play 3. Bc4, so the ordinary defense (4. Be2) to that kind of knight pin doesn't work as it burns a tempo and kills white's initative, plus a trade would let the black queen in for the obnoxious check. 4. o-o is my usual choice, where a trade would be nice (into the muzio, but without sacrificing the piece!), but I never get one... just a long, painful, obnoxious pin that stalls my attack. All the while, black recovers the development -- 4. ... Nc6 or some such. I'm in this mess in a couple of correspondence games online where I'm trying to kill that line with massive sacrifices. Like 5. Bxf7+ Kxf7 6. Ng5+ Qxg5 7. Rxf4+ etc. I really don't have high hopes for it though. Does anyone have any good ideas as white against 4. ... Bg4 ? Thanks. |
|
Apr-26-04 | | Lawrence: <paultopia>, welcome to Chessgames, a great site which I'm sure you will enjoy very much. Check the Opening Explorer and you'll surely find what to do against 4...Bg4. |
|
Apr-26-04 | | paultopia: Thanks Lawrence! I hadn't thought of checking the Opening Explorer. Having done so... hmm... there don't seem to be many games in that line, and definitely not one clear main variation. No brutal refutation either. I could hope :-) My preferred 5. o-o is in there, as is Nc3, which I simply do not understand. It doesn't deal with the problem at all. 5. Nc3 Bxf6 6. Qxf6 Qh4+ and white's kingside is in a complete mess. Obviously there's SOMETHING wrong for black in that line, because it hasn't been played in any of the grandmaster games in the database... but what? With 5. o-o, the two games there aren't very enligntening. In M Zimmermann vs Schierling Eckhard, 1994 black succeeds in quieting the game down, then (move 17) bizarrely sacrifices a knight for totally inadequate compensation, at which point white simplifies and wins the endgame. In the other, M Vann vs R Pullen, 1992, black simply plays like a class z player, blundering the exchange, then a piece, before resigning. The eventual Qd3 from white seems to work post castling, and white kept the initative, but only, I think, because black wasted time with 5. ... Nh6 Suggestions would still be wonderful :-) |
|
Apr-26-04 | | refutor: <5.Nc3 Bxf6 6.Qxf6 Qh4+> what's wrong with 7.g3 and where's the best spot for his queen? white is better in that line. have you tried 5.d3? you threaten to win back the f-pawn and punish his slow development |
|
Apr-29-04 | | paultopia: Thanks refutor. I had a pat answer for what's wrong with 7. g3 relating to concerns about 7. ... fxg3 8. Qxg3 Qxg3 9. hxg3 Nx6 10. d4 o-o-o where black has almost recovered the development, and white is left with a seriously messed up kingside and little opportunity to recover the pawn. However, obviously, duh, 7. ... fxg3 8. Qxf7+ and black can just resign. 8. ... Kd8 9. Qxf8+ Kd7 10. Be6+ Kc6 (if Kxe6 Qe8+ Kf6 Qd8+ winning the queen) etc. etc. So obviously, I now agree with you. Just for the record, by the way... 5. Bxf7+ Kxf7 6. Ng5+ Qxg5 7. Rxf4+ does indeed fail. Miserably. to 7. ... Nf6. Which, for some reason, I completely failed to calculate when I went on my little orgy of sacrifice. Ooops. The problem with 5. d3, I think, is that it intices his queen to f6, where it seriously hinders queenside development, guards the f file, and is immune from harassment. I really don't like facing ... Qf6 anywhere in this opening, and encouraging it is never good. That was a long way of saying thanks... |
|
Apr-29-04 | | refutor: again, i don't see anything wrong with the queen being on f6. you play 5.d3 Qf6 6.Nc3 and 7.O-O and you're fine. that's just my amateur patzerish opinion ;) |
|
May-03-04 | | paultopia: Hmm... maybe I'm a little nervous about that queen. I'm always nervous about queens developed close to the kingside and the center early on and not in a position to be harassed... reminds me vaguely of Tal's "launching" concept. Here's one possibility that makes me a little worried, for example. Black gives the pawn back to murder white's kingside pawn structure. 1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 d6 4. Bc4 Bg4 5. d3 Qf6 6. Nc3 d5 7. exd5 Qe7+
8. Ne2 Bxf3 9. gxf3 g5
now, granted, in that variation, black is less developed, and is weak in the center, but is only a move from castling queenside, whereas it's going to take a bunch of moves to get white's king anywhere safe. Then black can fianchetto the dark-squared bishop, and I really don't like white's position. Hmm... I guess white can save that by 7. Bxd5 Bb4 8. o-o but then black picks up an extra pawn with the exchange on c3, and if white defends that with 8. Bd2, it also removes the threat to recapture the f pawn, functionally allowing black to not worry about it anymore and complete development by 8. ... Ne7 (although I think actually capturing the bishop would be a blunder because of 9. o-o Nxd5 10. Nxd5 and black loses the bishop on b4) then o-o, and it looks like black is quite happy with the position. Who do you think stands better, refutor, after this line I've just kicked around, with best play, as far as I can determine for white? It looks ok for black, developmentally. White's center is stronger, but black has that extra pawn and looks to be able to hold onto it... 1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 d6 4. Bc4 Bg4 5. d3 Qf6 6. Nc3 d5 7. Bxd5 Bb4 8.
Bd2 Ne7 9. O-O O-O |
|
May-03-04 | | paultopia: oooh... I was wrong. black gave the pawn back... hmm.... |
|
May-09-04 | | paultopia: WOA. I just found the WORST KING'S GAMBIT GAME EVER RECORDED. Check it out. A Hansson vs CStesser, 1992 White frittered away a dead solid win. |
|
May-17-04 | | dave95465: I have been having fun on my computer playing g3 as White's third move following 1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 If Black's third move is Qe7 I play Bg2.
When Black takes fxg3 I take back hxg3 and go from there. Lively games ensue. Any killer refutations? I am new here so go easy on me ;-) |
|
May-17-04
 | | tpstar: <dave95465> Greetings! Personally I love to accept the King's Gambit as Black, then 3 ... d6 & 4 ... h6 (thank you Fischer!) to prevent tricks on e5 or g5 leading to f7. This site has an Opening Explorer to find examples of opening play; unfortunately, 3. g3!? is not listed, meaning it has not been seen in serious play (per this database). I would suggest 3 ... d5 opening up Black's game; if 4. ed Qxd5 threatens the Rh1 (5. Nf3 fg 6. hg Bg4) and if 4. gf?? Qh4+ forces 5. Ke2, then 5 ... Bg4+ 6. Nf3 de wins the Nf3. The other line would be 3. Bg2 de 4. Bxe4 Nf6 (development with gain of time)5. Bg2 fg 6. hg Bc5 and Black has an easy game. If you are testing this idea out, you might try playing both sides for a while to learn ideal play. Good luck! |
|
May-17-04 | | Cornwallis: This is actually the fastest defeat in the king's gambit for me. It goes like this(i am black):
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.d4 Nc6
5.Bc4 h6 6.0-0 Nf6 7.e5 Ng8 8.g3 fxg3
9.Bxf7! Ke7 (otherwise Kxf7 Nxg5 would regain the pawn) 10.Nxg5 and I resigned cause soon this game will turn in to a king hunt in the middlegame.
You don't know the humiliation when this happened!!! |
|
May-18-04 | | GiDunno: paultopia, in your new move 3:Bc4 d6 4:Nf3 Bg4 5:Nc3 Bxf3 6:Qxf3 Qh4+ 7:g3 fxg3 8:Qxf7+ 9:Qxf8+ you leave the continuation at 10:Be6+? Kxe6 11:Qe8? Ne7! and white is lost...(g2+,.. gxh1=Q). Fritz4.0 shows this is decisive. But to prove your point, a better move was 10:Qxg7+! ... 11:Qxg3 which leaves white ahead 4pts and I believe a handsome position. |
|
May-18-04 | | HailM0rphy: Anyone know whats the best defense vs the cunningham? (Be7) Morphy always played bc5 but then after Bh4 either Nxh4 Qxh4+ Kf1 or Bh4 G3 Fxg3 0-0 Gxh2+ Kh1.. are these still the best lines? |
|
May-18-04 | | dave95465: Thanks <tpstar>. 3...d5 looks pretty good to 3. g3 I'll play around a bit more with it. 4.e5 is no good, and 4.Qf3 doesn't do enough. 4. Nc3 might be the best White can do. |
|
May-22-04 | | paultopia: GiDunno ow. thanks. that's ... err... a terrible terrible mistake, on my part. Gad. You have no idea how many sacrificial attacks I've lost to surprise knight interpositions that I simply missed. Qxg7+ followed by Qxg3 makes RATHER more sense :-) |
|
May-22-04 | | fred lennox: I beleive one reason why the King Gambit is not used much in GM play is because a lot of GM's like not to reveal thier intentions, or not to commit themselves, as long as possible. The King gambit sort of starts with a Bang! Also, open positions is not favored by many GM's. Yet today, there isn't the clear-cut division between open, semi, and closed positions as once was, in that one can go for sudden combinations in closed and slow manuevering in open. I know a 24-2500 player who favors open positions and does use the King Gambit. He's a grinder, as a rule. He'll take 3-4 moves to put his knight in a slightly better position, and the position is open! I am fascinated by that. So I conclude the King Gambit is for those who like open positions, not simply for those who like tactics. |
|
May-25-04 | | paultopia: another interesting line. What do people think about 1. e4 e5 2. f4 Qh4+ 3. g3 Qe7 4. d4?!
I like 4. d4 as a defense to the pawn disordering of the early check because it defends the kingside pawn chain as well as threatens to get a good stomp going in the center... what do folks think? It only seems to appear in one game in the database... M Vann vs J C Saunders, 1991 |
|
May-25-04
 | | cu8sfan: Can anyone help me on the Kieseritzky gambit after
1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. h4 g4 5. Ne5 d6 6. Nxg4 Be7. Should you play d4 or d3? I don't see any advantage for White either way. d4 prevents a later Qc5 (after Qg5) but weakens the d-pawn. Gallagher sees good chances for White after 7. d3 Bxh4 8. Qf3 or Qe2 Bg3
but I don't really see why... |
|
May-25-04
 | | cu8sfan: Of course I missed a move in my previous question:
7. ...Bxh4+ 8. Nf2 Qg5 9. Qf3 or Qe2 Bg3. |
|
May-29-04
 | | tpstar: Here's a fine question for all you gallant swashbuckling King's Gambiteers! In the Little Bishop's Gambit (1. e4 e5 2. f4 ef 3. Bc4), daring Black to play 3 ... Qh4+, has anybody noticed how well Black scores with 3 ... f5!? instead? Opening Explorer There's an old Rook sacrifice line (4. Qe2 fe 5. Qh5+ g6 6. Qe5+ Qe7 7. Qxh8 Nf6) where Black proceeds with ... c6 & ... d5, while the Qh8 has no moves until it gets traded for a Knight (Nd7/Ne5/Nf7) or a Rook (0-0-0). Has anyone ever encountered this line, and what was your response? Thank you. |
|
 |
 |
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 19 ·
Later Kibitzing> |