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Jun-18-21
 | | Tabanus: The newspapers do have a couple of births in Keswick 1809-1811 of .. "daughter(s) and a son". (I found no "of a son" only.) Perhaps the Earl of Carlisle paid more than one annuity ;) |
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Jun-18-21
 | | MissScarlett: <Of the other seven children: 1 William Henry (born 1826) died as an infant 2 William Edward (born 1828) married in 1849
3 Francis (born 1830) married in 1850
5 Harriett (born 1833) no idea, possibly died as an infant 6/7 Mary Magdalene (born 1836) and Sophia Charlotte (born 1837) I can't find these two anywhere in the 1851 census, though they were definitely alive 8 Stephen (born 1841) died in 1843>
Thanks for locating the two offspring missing from <Tab>'s earlier 'well-sourced' family tree (Howard Staunton (kibitz #387)) - they're <William Edward> and <Harriet>. Can you narrow down the birth date of <William Edward>? I'm always on the look-out for potential illegitimacy. <Mary Magdalene (born 1836) and Sophia Charlotte (born 1837) I can't find these two anywhere in the 1851 census, though they were definitely alive> Let's assume they were away at school. The census, of course, was only intended as a snapshot of a particular day. But was it restricted to private dwellings? Were communal institutions such as boarding schools/colleges, prisons, workhouses, hospitals, asylums included in any way? When Frances moved into Sydney Place in 1846 (likely from Essex St.) she was probably then still in charge of five, possibly six children, the eldest of which would have been around 18. By 1849, how many remained? How did Staunton take to step-fatherhood? Were teenage girls running round the house a distraction? |
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Jun-18-21
| | Tabanus: 1841 census St Clement Danes Essex st:
Frances Nethersole, 35 35 (35 is striked out for female), Sol-- (?)
William Nethersole 13
Frances Nethersole 8
Mary Nethersole 5
Sophia Nethersole 3
Stephen Nethersole 3 months
No mention of husband William D. Nethersole. "Sol--" unclear may mean Solicitor. |
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Jun-18-21
| | Tabanus: 1841 census Kent St John The Baptist Margate, 23 Brescent Lodge: Willm Nethersole 73 Magister Ind (??)
Harriet Nethersole 75
William Nethersole 41
Geo (?) Cates 42 Sol
Harriet Nethersole 37 |
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| Jun-18-21 | | Gallicrow: <Were communal institutions such as boarding schools/colleges, prisons, workhouses, hospitals, asylums included in any way?>
Yes, for the most part. Though I suspect they were more likely to miss people out as I have a few relatives in my family tree who disappeared into a mental asylum in early life and did not appear in all of the censuses after that. If someone was in an asylum for many years then records / memories of exactly when and where they were born could be lost.Private schools seemed to be pretty good at recording all the pupils, though the ages of some of them can surprisingly be out by a couple of years. Howard Nethersole, the son of Howard Staunton's stepson, Francis, was in Holloway prison for the 1881 census. I think it was the first born child of William and Frances who was missing from Tab's post. William and Frances married on 10th August 1825. Their son, William Henry, was Christened on 8th August 1826 and was buried on the 31st August 1826. No reason to suspect that he was born within 9 months of his parents' marriage, though obviously that was incredibly common at the time. As was so common then, their next son was given the name William as well, this time William Edward. He lived to the grand old age of 49. |
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Jun-18-21
| | MissScarlett: <I think it was the first born child of William and Frances who was missing from Tab's post. William and Frances married on 10th August 1825.> Yes, <William Henry>, of course. Sheer carelessness. <Private schools seemed to be pretty good at recording all the pupils, though the ages of some of them can surprisingly be out by a couple of years.> I understand it was a practice in the 1841 census (and later?) to round down ages to the nearest five years (e.g. a 24 year-old could be recorded as aged 20) but this wasn't uniformly observed. I suppose, however, the practice didn't apply to children. |
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Jun-18-21
| | MissScarlett: <There are "no plans" to remove a blue plaque for children's author Enid Blyton, despite English Heritage saying her work is racist and xenophobic. The plaque outside her former home in south-west London was installed in 1997, 29 years after her death aged 71. A freshly updated online description notes one of her characters, Sambo, "is only accepted by his owner" once his black face is washed "clean by rain". English Heritage says it is trying to "better reflect today's values". The revised article on its website and app noted that Blyton's work had been criticised during her lifetime and after, "for its racism, xenophobia and lack of literary merit". It also claimed the writer was rejected by the Royal Mint for commemoration on a 50p coin because she was "a racist, sexist homophobe and not a very well-regarded writer".> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-engla... Blimey! The great man's legacy is hanging by a thread... Naturally, he has his own plaque: https://www.english-heritage.org.uk... |
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Jun-18-21
 | | keypusher: <MissScarlett: <There are "no plans" to remove a blue plaque for children's author Enid Blyton, despite English Heritage saying her work is racist and xenophobic.> Any plans to put "We Hate" in front of "English Heritage?" |
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Jun-18-21
| | MissScarlett: All I can say is that I read lots of Blyton's books, and they never did me any harm! As regards their literary merit, it was difficult to tell as a 9 year-old. I soon progressed to the <Hardy Boys> and <The Turner Diaries>. |
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| Jun-18-21 | | Gallicrow: <MissScarlett: I understand it was a practice in the 1841 census (and later?) to round down ages to the nearest five years>
That was only for the 1841 census. Children aged 15 and younger were supposed to have their exact age recorded.The other annoying things about the 1841 census are the lack of any indication of how everyone in a household is related, and the lack of birth places. If the person was born in the same county as they were living in in 1841 then this was recorded, but otherwise it was just a general "somewhere else". The UK censuses are great for genealogy, but they seemed to result in less information being recorded in parish records, which are fantastic for pre-1841 events (provided they haven't been lost, burnt, flooded or locked away for "safe keeping"). |
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Jun-20-21
| | Tabanus: Howard was the illegitimate son of Sir George Staunton, and also half Chinese. Case closed. |
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Jun-20-21
| | MissScarlett: You expect me to believe that!? For starters, where?s the evidence that <Sir George Staunton> was Chinese? |
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Jun-20-21
| | Tabanus: Ok perhaps it was the <6th> Earl of Carlisle, and that the historian Murray mistakenly blamed his father, the 5th Earl Frederick Howard (who was about 60 in 1810). The 6th Earl of Carlisle George Howard was about 37 in 1810, and was at that time and until abt. his father's death in 1825 known as Viscount / Count / Lord <Morpeth>. I think it's the name Morpeth that's in the newspapers. Did Lord Morpeth ever visit Keswick? Yes why not. Keswick is in the middle of the Lakes / Lake District, at N end of Derwent Lake (Derwentwater Lake), beatiful surroundings, an Inn or three, a church not far away, and not least the lake was surrounded by posh houses with for example six bedrooms etc., one can see these for sale or rent in the newspapers of 1810. I think the rich people went there for recreation. |
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Jun-20-21
| | Tabanus: I've actually been there!
About 40 years ago, on a course in freshwater biology. I remember our hostess called me "Mr. Woodbine", and I've always wondered what she meant by it :) |
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Jun-20-21
| | Tabanus: There is also William Howard (1781 ? 1843), the brother of the 6th Earl of Carlisle. He would be abt. 29 in 1810. |
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Jun-20-21
| | Tabanus: Madras Courier, 18 February 1807:
<The Borough of Morpeth, in Northumberland, will be vacant, should Lord Morpeth succeed in being elected for the County of Cumberland.> Star (London), 23 June 1807:
<The following Places have returned, to serve in the New Parliament, Members who, on Mr. Brand's Mr. Lyttleton's Motion, in April last, voted against the present Administration: ... Cumberland Lord Morpeth> Sun (London), 17 October 1812:
<New Parliament. Members returned. ... Cumberland, Lord Morpeth, J. Lowther, Esq.> The boss in Keswick, Cumberland 1809 to 1810 was apparently Lord Morpeth, later 6th Earl of Carlisle. |
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Jun-20-21
| | Tabanus: Morning Advertiser, 22 July 1808:
<Education and Clothing for Twenty Guineas per year. - At Keswick, in Cumberland, a dissenting minister has a vacancy for Two or Three Children, under the age of 10 or 11. The number he takes is very limited. This advertisement is inserted without his knowledge, by a Gentleman who had two orphans under his care, and who wishes, by recommending him, to prove the satisfaction he has derived from the attention which has been paid to them. Any letter addressed, post paid, to C. S. Y. at Mr. Hathway?s Newspaper officer, Royal Exchange, Cornhill, wili be replied to with further particulars, and the most respectable references. A Person, who leaves London for Keswick at the latter end of this month, will undertake the care of any children during his journey.> Very strange. I post this, just in case :) |
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Jun-20-21
| | Tabanus: Morning Herald (London), 25 August 1828:
<Though Keswick is the grand rendezvous of all the Lake tourists ? the metropolis of the Lake district, and the emporium of the picturesque; though she is seated at the base of giant Skiddaw, and at the head of the most beautiful lake among them; and though there has been enough said and sung in her praise ... Item, She hath a theatre! ... Went to the theatre ? a spacious up-stairs apartment, seventeen feet by twenty, fitted up for the season with two benches for the pit, four for the gallery, none for tbe boxes ? And reason good, because of boxes there are none ? orchestra, two fiddles ? first and second; stationed on the landing place at the head of the stairs, in order that he who played the first fiddle might also take the money ? which he did, very adroitly, without much detriment to tbe harmony. Bill's announced that "his Majesty's servants" would that night perform Venice Preserved. --- Forgot to state that Keswick has ... "a national school for the instruction of her rising youth" ... Keswick to Carlisle ... passed the White Horse at Staunton ..> |
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Jun-20-21
| | Tabanus: Just some food for thought. Wikipedia says "in later life Staunton often used to tell how he had once played Lorenzo in the Merchant of Venice." "Venice Preserved" was played in Keswick in 1828 :) |
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Jun-20-21
| | Tabanus: My theory goes: born in Keswick, brought to London and perhaps baptized there, returned later (from time to time) to Keswick and performed in the theatre there. He may have learned skills at the school in Keswick, which town even had a Museum (from 1793 and perhaps earlier, until 1840 and perhaps later). |
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Jun-20-21
| | MissScarlett: There are people who believe that Shakespeare was born in Stratford-upon-Avon. |
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Jun-20-21
| | Tabanus: I find no indication of chess in Keswick. Only this, in Cumberland Pacquet 25 August 1840: <Mr. Huttman, the original projecter of the Westminster Chess Club, who has devoted much time and attention to the cultivation of his knowledge of this scientific game, purposes introducing it into schools, and with that view selects questions and problems which he publishes in the metropolis, and offers to send gratis, except the rate of postage, to the teachers of any scholastic establishments in the empire. We feel pleasure in seconding Mr. Huttman?s endeavours to introduce this intellectual, moral, and scientific recreation into schools, by bestowing upon his efforts the humble meed of our approbation. The puzzling game of chess is admirably calculated for producing originality of thought, and its tendency is not only to improve and cultivate, but also to strengthen the judgment; and though it will not form a portion of scholastic study, yet its introduction into public schools as system of educational discipline, in our opinion, will be highly advantageous as recreative improvement.> |
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Jun-20-21
| | Tabanus: Miss you can put this in a context much better than I. I wonder about Murray's (1908) gleaning <from various obituary notices and from the "Dictionary of National Biography."> I do not know what that dictionary said, and what kind of "obituary notices" it can be. In newspapers?? |
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Jun-20-21
| | Tabanus: Bell's Life in London and Sporting Chronicle, 1 November 1835: <WESTMINSTER CHESS-CLUB SUBSCRIPTION. HOUSE, No. 20, Bedford.street, Covent Garden. Upwards of Two Hundred Gentlemen, including all the first Chess Players of the day, have subscribed to this establishment, which combines the advantages of an ordinary club with those to be derived by chess amateurs from constant opportunities in practising with players of every grade. It has been found expedient to render it less exclusive than heretofore by changing its original character of a Club into that of a REUNION, open to Gentlemen of undoubted respectability. The house is well situated, and contains a suite of elegant Rooms handsomely furnished, and admirably adapted for their various purposes. The Chess Saloon is supplied with the leading Newspapers, Magazines and Reviews, together with the best Foreign and English Works on Chess. The Dining Room is spacious, and can accommodate a large party. An excellent House Dinner is provided daily at half-past five o'clock, strict attention being paid to style, comfort, and economy. Other Refreshments can be had at all hours, a professed Cook being constantly in attendance. The Cigar Room is lofty, well ventilated, and so constructed that the smoke cannot escape to other parts of the house. The Billiard Room contains one of Thurston's improved petrosian tables, with India rubber cushions; and the terms of play are more moderate than those of similar esteblishments. The Rate of Subscribtion is Three Guineas per annum, One Guinea per quarter, or Five Shillings per week, the last amount being intended for the accommodation of Foreigners and Country Gentlemen making a short stay in town. Subscribers have the privilege at all times of introducing a friend, on the payment of one shilling for each visit. An inspection of the establishment is respectfully solicited from those Gentlemen who may be desirous of becoming subscribers; and Mr. Huttman, the proprietor, is constantly in attendance, to give additional information respecting it. Open daily (Sunday excepted), from 10 a.m. until 12 p.m.> |
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Jun-20-21
| | MissScarlett: <I wonder about Murray's (1908) gleaning <from various obituary notices and from the "Dictionary of National Biography."> I do not know what that dictionary said>: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dict... Coles's commentary:
Howard Staunton (kibitz #377) |
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