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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 9 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Mar-15-04 | | drukenknight: I was thinking something like this:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6 3.Nxe5 fxe5 4.Qh5+ g6 5.Qxe5+ Qe7 6. Qxh8 Qxe4+ 7 Kf1 Nh6 8 Qf6 d5 9 Be2 Bf5 10 d3 Qxg2 11 Re1 Be7 12 Qh8+ Kd7 13 Qe5 |
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| Mar-16-04 | | InspiredByMorphy: <drukenknight> I dont completely discount the Damiano defense, but I believe 3.fxe5 is the worst move to make, considering the obvious (it gives up the exchange), but more so because it wins for white. However if black doesen't take the knight via 3.fxe5, and develops another piece (preferably 3.Ne7), than white must retreat the knight. In this way black has the lead in development, but the move that defines the Damiano 2.f6, is the crutch in blacks position if white leaves it be, for black has no time to move/defend it.
1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 f6
3. Nxe5 fxe5
4. Qh5+ g6
5. Qxe5+ Qe7
6. Qxh8 Qxe4+
7. Kd1 Nh6
8. Qf6 d5
9. Be2 Bf5
10. d3 Qxg2
11. Re1 Be7
12. Qh8+ Kd7
13. Qe5 Nc6
14. Qg3 Qxg3
15. fxg3 Ng4
16. Rf1 d4
17. h3 Ne3+
18. Bxe3 dxe3
19. g4 Be6
20. Nc3 Re8
21. Rf3 h5
22. gxh5 gxh5
23. Rxe3 Bc5
24. Re4 Rf8
25. Bxh5 Bxh3
26. Kd2 Nd4
27. Na4 Rf2+
28. Kc1 Kc6
29. b4 Rxc2+
30. Kd1 Bf5
31. Rh4 Rg2
32. bxc5 Rg1+
33. Kd2 Rxa1
34. Rxd4 and black already down the exchange, must sacrifice material to avoid mate with 34. Rxa7+ 35.Ke3 Rxa5 (whites bishop threatening mate two ways, the defending knight must go.) Unfortunately I cant find much more than draws with the damiano defense and I'll tell you why. Its not because of black offering the exchange with the rook via 3.fxe5, its because black doesen't get proper compensation for his pawn by means of development. In most gambits you get development, but in this opening its hard to develop winning attacks. |
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| Mar-16-04 | | InspiredByMorphy: <drukenknight> The best attacking Damiano defense I can come up with playing 3.Qe7 1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 f6
3. Nxe5 Qe7
4. Nc4 Qxe4+
5. Ne3 Nc6
6. Nc3 Qe5
7. Bc4 Nge7
8. O-O Nd4
9. d3 b5
10. Ned5 bxc4
11. Re1 Qd6
12. Bf4 Qc6
13. Nxc7+ Kf7
14. Nxa8 Bb7
15. Ne4 Bxa8
16. dxc4 Ne6
17. Bd6 Qxc4
18. b3 Qc6
19. c4 Kg8
20. Qh5 Ng5
21. Qe8 Ng6
22. Bxf8 Nxf8
23. f3 Nxe4
24. Rxe4 Qb6+
25. Re3 Bc6
26. Rd1 h6
27. h4 d5
28. Qe7 dxc4
29. bxc4 Nd7
30. a4 Kh7
31. a5 Qxa5
32. Rxd7 Bxd7
33. Qxd7 Rd8
34. Qc6 Rd4
35. Re7 Qa1+
36. Kf2 Rxh4
37. Qd7 Qd4+
38. Qxd4 Rxd4
39. Rc7 Rd2+
40. Ke3 Rxg2
41. Rxa7 Rc2
42. Kd4 h5
43. Ra1 g5
44. Kd3 Rf2
45. Ke3 Rg2
46. Rc1 h4
47. c5 Rb2
48. c6 Rb8
49. c7 Rc8
50. Ke4 Kg6
51. Kd5 h3
52. Kc6 f5
53. Rg1 Kh5
54. Rd1 g4
55. Rd8 Rxc7+
56. Kxc7 Kh4
57. Kd6 Kg3
58. fxg4 fxg4
59. Ke5 h2
60. Rd3+ Kh4
61. Rd8 g3
62. Kf4 Kh3
63. Rg8 h1=Q
64. Rh8+ Kg2
65. Rxh1 Kxh1
66. Kxg3 1/2-1/2 |
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| Mar-16-04 | | InspiredByMorphy: <drukenknight> The Damiano defense strikes! 3 kibitzes ago I said I had a refutation to my first variation containing 3.Ne7. I have now found a refutation to my refutation! :) Instead of 6.Nxc3 black plays Be6 There are no games in the database with 3.Ne7 and is definitely worth looking at. I believe it is the best response when playing the Damiano. You'll like this game. Long but worth playing! 1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 f6
3. Nxe5 Ne7
4. Nc4 d5
5. exd5 Nxd5
6. Nc3 Be6
7. Nxd5 Qxd5
8. Ne3 Qd6
9. d4 Nd7
10. c4 Qb4+
11. Qd2 O-O-O
12. a3 Qxd2+
13. Bxd2 g6
14. Be2 Bh6
15. O-O Rhe8
16. Rfe1 Nc5
17. Bc3 Na4
18. Bd3 c6
19. Rab1 f5
20. Rbd1 Bg7
21. Nc2 c5
22. Bf1 Nxc3
23. bxc3 Bf7
24. Rxe8 Bxe8
25. Re1 Ba4
26. Bd3 cxd4
27. Nxd4 Bxd4
28. cxd4 Rxd4
29. Bf1 Kd7
30. Re5 Rd1
31. f4 Bb3
32. Kf2 Rd2+
33. Ke3 Ra2
34. Ra5 a6
35. Kd4 Rf2
36. Kc3 Rxf1
37. Kxb3 Rf2
38. g3 Rxh2
39. Rd5+ Kc6
40. Rd3 h5
41. Kb4 Re2
42. a4 Re4
43. a5 h4
44. gxh4 Rxf4
45. Rh3 Kd6
46. h5 gxh5
47. Rxh5 Rf1
48. Kc3 Ke5
49. Rh7 Rc1+
50. Kd3 Rd1+
51. Kc2 Ra1
52. Rxb7 Rxa5
53. Kd3 Ra3+
54. Ke2 f4
55. Rf7 a5
56. Kd2 f3
57. c5 Ke6
58. Rh7 Kd5
59. Rh5+ Kc6
60. Rf5 a4
61. Kc2 Ra2+
62. Kd3 Kb5
63. Kd4 f2
64. Rf8 a3
65. Rb8+ Kc6
66. Rb6+ Kc7
67. Rb1 Re2
68. Rh1 Re1
69. Rh7+ Kd8
70. Rh8+ Ke7
71. Rh7+ Kf6
72. Rh6+ Kg5
73. Rh8 f1=Q
74. Rg8+ Kh6
75. Rh8+ Kg7
76. Rd8 Rd1+
77. Ke3 Rxd8
78. c6 Rd3+
79. Ke4 Kf6
80. c7 Qf5# |
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| Mar-16-04 | | InspiredByMorphy: Crazy - the Damiano defense can win! I shouldn't be so surprised though, as its easy to discount what we dont know. For example to play the Bird's defense well doesent come over night (one difference is however that in the Damiano black gives up a pawn and in essence plays a gambit). |
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| Mar-16-04 | | InspiredByMorphy: Heres another crazy one called the Freds defense. It is generally regarded as one of the (if not the) worst response to 1.e4 Judging by this game you wouldn't know so. 1. e4 f5
2. exf5 Nf6
3. d4 e6
4. fxe6 d5
5. Nf3 Bxe6
6. Bd3 Be7
7. O-O Nc6
8. Nc3 O-O
9. Bg5 Bg4
10. Re1 a6
11. h3 Bh5
12. Bf5 Bxf3
13. gxf3 Kh8
14. Be6 Nh5
15. Be3 Bb4
16. Qd2 Qd6
17. Bg5 Nf4
18. Bg4 h6
19. Bxf4 Rxf4
20. Rad1 Nxd4
21. Kg2 Raf8
22. Re3 c5
23. a3 Ba5
24. Rde1 Qg6
25. Qd3 Qxd3
26. Rxd3 c4
27. Rdd1 Nxf3
28. Re7 Bxc3
29. bxc3 Nh4+
30. Kg3 Nf5+
31. Kxf4 Nxe7+
32. Kg3 Kh7
33. Be6 Rd8
34. h4 Kg6
35. Bg4 Rd6
36. f4 Kf7
37. h5 Rb6
38. Bf3 Rb2
39. Rd2 Ke6
40. Bg4+ Kf6
41. Bf3 Ra2
42. Bxd5 Nxd5
43. Rxd5 Rxc2
44. Rd6+ Ke7
45. Rb6 Rxc3+
46. Kf2 Rb3
47. Rg6 Kf8
48. f5 Rb5
49. f6 Rf5+
50. Ke3 Rxf6 and wins. |
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| Mar-16-04 | | drukenknight: Wow, lots of stuff here to digest. Yes I like the idea of Ne7; I will look at all those games. IBM: You expressed some interest in the Latvian a few posts back. I have already posted some Latvian lines in another folder (perhaps the Fischer/Pupols game?) Anyhow, where white takes 3 exf5 I call this Greco/Latvian, since Greco's games mostly did this. ANd 3 Nxe5 I call modern Latvian since that's the move that is suggested now. Here are some Greco/Latvians, played a/ chesslab computer, and trying to improve it each time around; the final line is starting to approach equality w/ another improvement for black in there Greco/Latvian:
1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 f5
3. exf5 d6
4. d4 e4
5. Qe2 Bxf5
6. Nc3 d5
7. Bf4 Nc6
8. O-O-O Bd6
9. Ne5 Be6
10. Nb5 Nge7
11. Qh5+ g6
12. Qg5 Nf5
13. Nxd6+ cxd6
14. Qxd8+ Kxd8
15. Nxc6+ bxc6
same w/ …..Qe7, which seems important to get this move in: 6…....Qe7
7. Ng5 Nc6
8. Qb5 Qd7
9. Be3 Nf6
10. Bc4 O-O-O
11. O-O d5
12. Be2 h6
13. Nh3 a6
14. Qb3 Bxh3
15. gxh3 Qxh3
same line w/ 9 Bf4:
9. Bf4 O-O-O
10. d5 Ne5
11. Qxd7+ (alternatives: Qb3 or Ngxe4) 11...Rxd7
12. Be3 c5
13. dxc6 |
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| Mar-17-04 | | drukenknight: my first ever Damiano, w/ Ne7 to boot! And it held immensely well. I was winning at the end but ran out of time. The Ns become very active rather quickly. The KN when to g7 and the QN to d7. It is a lot like the Fred except black has far better resources (read "pawn moves") to forestall white on the K-side. I did not really see a q side pawnslaught from white in this, although I am sure it is possible given what happens in the Fred. Like a lot of romantic defenses, getting in d5 is a liberating move and the Bs come to life. This game featured c6/d6 and then later d5; but the pawn structure is probably flexible. Also got the QB to a6 to get in a discovered attack on Rf1 via pawn advance to b4. |
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| Mar-17-04 | | drukenknight: A quick one in the Damiano, white I guess was a little confused... 1 e4 e5
2 Nf3 f6
3 Bc4 Bc5
4 Bxg8 Rxg8
5 d3 d6
6 Nc3 Nc6
7 00 Bg4
8 h3 Bh5
9 g4 Bf7
10 Re1 Qe7
11 Be3 Nd4
12 Nxd4? exd4
13 Na5 dxe3
14 Nxc5 exf2+
15 Kxf2 dxc5
16 e5 Qd4+
17 Kf1 Qf4+ and 0-1 |
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| Mar-18-04 | | InspiredByMorphy: <drukenknight> Nice ! The Greco/Latvian variation you supplied. 1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 f5
3. exf5 d6
4. d4 e4
5. Qe2 Bxf5
6. Nc3 d5
7. Bf4 Nc6
8. O-O-O Bd6
9. Ne5 Be6
10. Nb5 Nge7
11. Qh5+ g6
12. Qg5 Nf5
13. Nxd6+ cxd6
14. Qxd8+ Kxd8
15. Nxc6+ bxc6
16. g4 Ne7
17. Bxd6 Bxg4
18. Rd2 Kd7
19. Bc5 Raf8
20. Rg1 Rf4
21. Rxg4 Rxg4
22. Bh3 h5
23. Bxa7 Nf5
24. Bxg4 hxg4
25. c4 dxc4
26. Re2 Rxh2
27. Rxe4 Rxf2
28. Rxg4 c3
29. bxc3 Rxa2
30. Bc5 Ne3
31. Rxg6 Rc2+
and draws |
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| Mar-18-04 | | InspiredByMorphy: <drukenknight> Your variation with 9.Nf6 1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 f5
3. exf5 d6
4. d4 e4
5. Qe2 Bxf5
6. Nc3 d5
7. Bf4 Nc6
8. O-O-O Bd6
9. Ne5 Nf6
10. Bg5 O-O
11. Nxd5 Be7
12. Nxc6 bxc6
13. Nxe7+ Qxe7
14. Qc4+ Qe6
15. Qxe6+ Bxe6
16. f3 exf3
17. gxf3 Bd5
18. Bg2 Ng4
19. fxg4 Bxg2
20. Rhe1 Bf3
21. Rd3 Bxg4
22. Rde3 Rf2
23. h3 Bd7
24. Bh4 Rh2
25. Bg3 Rxh3
26. b3 h5
27. Re7 Rxg3
28. Rxd7 h4
29. Rxc7 h3
30. Rh1 Rd8
31. Rxa7 Rxd4
32. Rc7 Rh4
33. Rc8+ Kh7
34. Kb2 h2
35. Rxc6 Rg1
36. Rc4 Rh5
37. Rxh2 Rxh2
38. a4 Kg6
39. b4 Kf5
40. a5 Rhh1
41. Rc8 Rb1+
42. Ka3 g5
43. Rf8+ Ke6
44. Rg8 Rh2
45. Rxg5 Rxc2
46. b5 Rc3+
47. Ka4 Rc4+
48. Ka3 Rcb4
49. b6 R1b3+
50. Ka2 Rh3
51. Rc5 Kd6
52. Rg5 Kc6
53. Rf5 Rg4
54. Rf6+ Kb5
55. Rf5+ Ka4
56. Rf2 Kxa5
57. b7 Rb4
58. Rb2 Ra4+
59. Kb1 Rh1+
60. Kc2 Rh2+
61. Kb1 Rxb2+
62. Kxb2 Rb4+
63. Kc3 Rxb7
64. Kd4 Rb5
65. Ke3 Rb4
66. Kf3 Rc4
67. Ke2 Rc3
68. Kd1 Kb4
69. Ke2 Kc4
70. Kf2 Kd4
71. Ke2 Rd3
72. Kf2 Re3
73. Kf1 Ke4
74. Kg2 Rf3
75. Kg1 Kf4
76. Kg2 Kg4
77. Kh2 Rg3
78. Kh1 Kf3
79. Kh2 Kf2
80. Kh1 Rh3# |
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| Mar-18-04 | | InspiredByMorphy: <drukenknight> Your variation w/ 6.Qe7
1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 f5
3. exf5 d6
4. d4 e4
5. Qe2 Bxf5
6. Nc3 Qe7
7. Ng5 Nc6
8. Qb5 Qd7
9. Be3 Nf6
10. Bc4 O-O-O
11. O-O d5
12. Be2 h6
13. Nh3 a6
14. Qb3 Bxh3
15. gxh3 Qxh3
16. f3 Ng4
17. Bf4 Nxd4
18. Qa4 Nxf3+
19. Bxf3 Bc5+
20. Kh1 exf3
and wins
The variation w/ 9.Bf4
1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 f5
3. exf5 d6
4. d4 e4
5. Qe2 Bxf5
6. Nc3 Qe7
7. Ng5 Nc6
8. Qb5 Qd7
9. Bf4 O-O-O
10. d5 Ne5
11. Qxd7+ Rxd7
12. Be3 c5
13. dxc6ep Nxc6
14. O-O-O Nf6
15. Bc4 h6
16. Ne6 Bg4
17. h3 Bxd1
18. Rxd1 g5
19. f3 exf3
20. gxf3 d5
21. Nxd5 Nxd5
22. Bxd5 Bd6
23. f4 Ne7
24. Be4 Bxf4
25. Nxf4 Rxd1+
26. Kxd1 gxf4
27. Bxf4 h5
28. Be3 b6
29. c4 Kd7
30. c5 bxc5
31. Bxc5 a5
32. Bf3 Ke6
33. b3 Nd5
34. Bd4 Rh7
35. Bxd5+ Kxd5
36. Bb6 a4
37. bxa4 Rf7
38. Ke2 Rf4
39. a5 Ra4
40. Kf2 Rxa2+
41. Kf3 Ra3+
42. Kg2 Kd6
43. Kh2 Kc6
44. Kg2 Kb7
45. Bd8 Re3
46. h4 Re2+
47. Kf3 Re8
48. Bb6 Rg8
49. Bf2 Ka6
and draws |
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| Mar-18-04 | | InspiredByMorphy: <drukenknight> Here is a possible continuation for your Damiano game after move 17.Qf4+ Keep up the good posts! 1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 f6
3. Bc4 Bc5
4. Bxg8 Rxg8
5. d3 d6
6. Nc3 Nc6
7. O-O Bg4
8. h3 Bh5
9. g4 Bf7
10. Re1 Qd7
11. Be3 Nd4
12. Nxd4 exd4
13. Na4 dxe3
14. Nxc5 exf2+
15. Kxf2 dxc5
16. e5 Qd4+
17. Kf1 Qf4+
18. Kg1 Qg3+
19. Kf1 Bd5
20. exf6+ Kf7
21. Re2 Rae8
22. c3 Bf3
23. Qb3+ Kxf6
24. g5+ Kxg5
25. Re6 Rgf8
26. Re5+ Rxe5
27. h4+ Kxh4
28. Qc4+ Bg4+
29. Qf7 Rxf7# |
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| Mar-24-04 | | drukenknight: Hello IBM. Two questions:
Have you rejected 3...Qe7 in the damiano after: 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 f6 3 Nxe5? Do you consider Ne7 better than Qe7? I think I am getting better results w/ Qe7. Also, how are you generating these lines? Is this w/ computer? Which one? |
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| Mar-25-04 | | InspiredByMorphy: <drukenknight> <Have you rejected 3...Qe7 in the damiano after 3.Nxe5?>
First some 3.Ne7 . Move 9 alters in the following variations. With 9.f5
1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 f6
3. Nxe5 Ne7
4. Nc4 d5
5. exd5 Nxd5
6. d4 Nc6
7. Be2 Be7
8. O-O O-O
9. Nc3 f5
10. Nxd5 Qxd5
11. c3 Be6
12. Bf4 Qd7
13. Qd3 Bh4
14. Bf3 Rad8
15. Rad1 b5
16. d5 Bf7
17. Qe3 Qe7
18. Na3 Qxe3
19. fxe3 b4
20. Nb5 bxc3
21. bxc3 Ne7
22. Bxc7 Rxd5
and white wins the exchange.
With 9.Nxc3
1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 f6
3. Nxe5 Ne7
4. Nc4 d5
5. exd5 Nxd5
6. d4 Nc6
7. Be2 Be7
8. O-O O-O
9. Nc3 Nxc3
10. bxc3 f5
11. Bf3 a5
12. Qd3 a4
13. Re1 Bf6
14. Ba3 Re8
15. Bd5+ Kh8
16. Bf7 Rxe1+
17. Rxe1 Bd7
18. d5 Ne7
19. Ne5 Bxe5
20. Rxe5 Ng8
21. Be6 f4
22. Rf5 Bxe6
23. dxe6 Nf6
24. Qe2 Qe8
25. Rxf4 Ra6
26. e7 Rb6
27. Rb4 Rxb4
28. Bxb4 Qf7
29. Qb5 h6
30. c4 Kh7
31. Qf5+ Kh8
32. Qc8+ Ne8
33. Qd7 b6
34. Qc6 Kh7
35. h3 g5
36. Ba3 Qg6
37. Qxa4 c5
38. Qa8 Kg8
39. Qd5+ Qf7
40. Bc1 Qxd5
and black has nothing better than to exchange queens and the win is simple for white being 3 pawns up in the endgame. |
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| Mar-25-04 | | InspiredByMorphy: 1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 f6
3. Nxe5 Ne7
4. Nc4 d5
5. exd5 Nxd5
6. d4 Nc6
7. Be2 Be7
8. O-O O-O
9. Nc3 Be6
10. Ne3 Nxe3
11. Bxe3 Nb4
12. a3 Nd5
13. Nxd5 Qxd5
14. Re1 c6
15. Bf4 Rae8
16. Bh5 Bf7
17. Bxf7+ Qxf7
18. Qd3 Rd8
19. Rad1 Rfe8
20. c4 Bc5
21. Rxe8+ Qxe8
22. d5 cxd5
23. b4 Be7
24. cxd5 Bd6
25. Bxd6 Rxd6
26. Qc2 b5
27. Qc3 a6
28. h3 Qe7
29. Qc5 Qe5
30. g3 f5
31. Kf1 f4
32. Qc8+ Kf7
33. Qc7+ Qe7
34. Qxe7+ Kxe7
35. gxf4 Rf6
36. d6+ Kd7
37. Rd4 Rg6
38. f5 Rf6
39. Rh4 Rxf5
40. Rxh7 Rf7
41. h4 Kxd6
42. h5 Ke7
43. h6 g5
44. Rh8 Rf8
45. Rxf8 Kxf8
46. Ke2 Kg8
47. Kd3 Kh7
48. Kd4 Kxh6
49. Kc5 g4
50. Kb6 Kg5
51. Kxa6 Kf4
52. Kxb5 Kf3
53. a4 Kxf2
54. a5 g3
55. a6 g2
56. a7 g1=Q
57. a8=Q Qg3
58. Qb7 Qh4
59. Qc8 Qg3
60. Qb7 Qh4
61. Qc8 Qg3
62. Qb7 1/2-1/2
surprising endgame twist. |
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| Mar-25-04 | | InspiredByMorphy: With 3.Qe7
1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 f6
3. Nxe5 Qe7
4. Nc4 Qxe4+
5. Ne3 Nc6
6. Nc3 Qe5
7. Bc4 Nge7
8. O-O Nd4
9. d3 b5
10. Ned5 bxc4
11. Re1 Qd6
12. Bf4 Qc6
13. Nxc7+ Kf7
14. Nxa8 Bb7
15. Ne4 Bxa8
16. dxc4 Ne6
17. Bd6 Qxc4
18. b3 Qc6
19. c4 Kg8
20. Qh5 Ng5
21. Qe8 Ng6
22. Bxf8 Nxf8
23. f3 Nxe4
24. Rxe4 Qb6+
25. Re3 Bc6
26. Rd1 h6
27. h4 d5
28. Qe7 dxc4
29. bxc4 Nd7
30. a4 Kh7
31. a5 Qxa5
32. Rxd7 Bxd7
33. Qxd7 Rd8
34. Qc6 Qa1+
35. Kh2 a5
36. Qe4+ Kh8
37. Qc6 Qd4
38. Re4 Qd6+
39. Qxd6 Rxd6
40. Re8+ Kh7
41. Ra8 Rd4
42. g4 Rxc4
43. Rxa5 Rc7
44. h5 Kg8
45. Kg3 Kf7
46. Ra6 Rb7
47. Rc6 Ke8
48. Kf4 Kd7
49. Ra6 Ke7
50. Kf5 Kf7
51. Ra5 Rc7
52. f4 Rd7
53. Rc5 Rb7
54. Rd5 Rc7
55. Rd4 Rc5+
56. Ke4 Ke6
57. Rb4 Rc7
58. Ra4 Kd6
59. Kd4 Rb7
60. Ra6+ Ke7
61. Rc6 Rb4+
62. Ke3 Kd7
63. Ra6 Rb7
64. Ke4 Ke7
65. Kf5 Kf7
66. Rd6 Ra7
and draws |
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| Mar-25-04 | | InspiredByMorphy: <drukenknight> I think Im finding that the Damiano defence with 3.Ne7 or 3.Qe7 will produce a draw with good play. With 3.Ne7 the position becomes complex. It does seem a little harder to play than 3.Qe7 but I suppose if your a Damiano fan, you can switch it up. If you learn to play 3.Ne7 well, than if your opponent is weak in the following areas, you may have a good chance of winning. A.) Complicated positions B.) Unorthodox positions C.) Weak endgame skill - as most of the Damiano games I have watched, the draw was accomplished by very careful and defensive play, black usually getting the most out of the endgame. But to answer your question in a nutshell, no I dont reject 3.Qe7 The answer to your last question is CM9000 |
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| Mar-25-04 | | drukenknight: looks like you've just written the book on Damiano. |
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| Mar-25-04 | | ruylopez900: <<IBM>drukenknight> Do you guys play the Damiano's in serious games? Just skitles games? Or are just interested in writing the book (as dk pointed out)? =D j/w |
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| Mar-25-04 | | InspiredByMorphy: <ruylopez900> Only in skittles occasionally. Writing about it is fun though becuase Im learning about it, and Ive found its not as bad as everyone thinks, but its not great either. |
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| Mar-25-04 | | ruylopez900: <IBM> Alright. I was wondering because no serious player in my parts play it, only beginners who don't know the basics of opening theory (ie just randomly moving pieces) |
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Mar-27-04
 | | tpstar: Regarding the Damiano Defense (1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f6?!), White should know 3 things: 1) The Main Line is an easy win: 3. Nxe5! fxe5?! 4. Qh5+ g6 5. Qxe5+ Qe7 6. Qxh8 Qxe4+ 7. Kd1 and stop there. White is up the exchange and a Pawn and consolidates quickly. 2) The Mate Line is a slightly less easy win: 3. Nxe5! fxe5?! 4. Qh5+ Ke7?! 5. Qxe5+ Kf7 6. Bc4+ d5 (6 ... Kg6 7. Qf5+ Kh6 8. d4+) 7. Bxd5+ Kg6, and right now White must throw in 8. h4! (threatening 9. h5+ & 10. d4+), so 8 ... h5 and right now White must throw in 9. Bxb7! winning - 9 ... Bd6 10. Qa5 Bxb7 11. Qf5+ Kh6 12. d4+ is decisive. The immediate 8. Bxb7? is wrong due to 8 ... Bd6 9. Qd5 Nf6 10. Qb3 Bxb7 11. Qxb7 Nbd7 and Black won (Thaler-Sloan, Philadelphia 2003). This is perfectly explained in Tim McGrew's Chess Cafe article ("Tactics of Mistake"). 3) The McGregor Line is Black's only hope: 3. Nxe5! Qe7 4. Nf3 (Now 4. Qh5+?? loses to 4 ... g6 5. Nxg6 Qxe4+ & the Ng6 hangs.) d5 5. d3 de 6. de Qxe4+ (regaining the Pawn) 7. Be2 Bf5 8. Nd4 Nc6 9. Nxf5 Qxf5 10. 0-0 and stop there. FYI, Fischer-McGregor (Houston, 1964) went 10. 0-0 Bd6 11. Bg4 Qb5 12. Nc3 Qc4 and now with 13. Re1+ White would have kept Black's King stuck in the center and stood well (instead of 13. Be2?). Regarding the Damiano Defense, Black should know 3 things: 1) It is bad.
2) It is bad.
3) It is bad.
There are seven Damiano games in this database; that's barely one per century. And how did Black do? 5 losses and 2 draws. The dubious Damiano Defense deserves its bad reputation. This is not Black to Play and Win; this is Black to Play and Lose. If you don't believe me, air it out. Once. IBM and DK, I have tremendous respect for your valiant efforts trying to revive this dead horse, but it's been long dead for many reasons. In your posted reference games, I believe the winner outplayed the loser along the way, which was not directly related to the opening phase. In other words, you won (or lost) in spite of your opening, not because of your opening. It is hard to justify Black gambiting a Pawn (and/or the exchange) for such unclear compensation. Besides, most e4 players would retreat the Ne5 to f3, not c4 like several of your example games. So, by all means please continue to investigate these ancient gambits, because those Greco/Latvian lines with 2 ... f5!? have real sting, but please don't recommend 2 ... f6?! to anybody. |
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| Mar-29-04 | | Cyphelium: <tpstar> Well said. <InspiredbyMorphy>Your posts puzzle me a bit. You seem to intend to do analysis, but you don't give any alternatives to your suggested moves. I have taken a look at your latest (long) post at this thread. No offense, but it seems to me that you post a lot of unnecessary moves and at the same time you avoid commenting on more 'natural moves' than the ones you suggest. Also, sometimes you make errors (as we all do!) and this of course invalidates all the following analysis. The most striking example is around moves 17-20, where you miss a piece win. This means that all the following moves are without interest for your analysis of the opening. Ok, the main moves are the ones given by you:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f6 3. Nxe5 Qe7 4. Nc4 Qxe4+ 5. Ne3 Nc6 6. Nc3 Qe5 7. Bc4 Nge7 8. O-O (Here I would probably end the analysis, since white is probably better: more harmonious, better developed and a black queen to kick around. But ok, you could go on.)8.- Nd4?! (a truly strange move, losing valuable time)9. d3(Why not 9. f4? It seems to very dangerous for black. He has three possible queen moves, all give white the better play. For example: 9.- Qc5 10. Ne4 Qb6 11. Qh5+ and black has to play 11.- Kd8, since 11.- g6 or 11.- Ng6 immediatly lose.)9. - b5 10. Ned5 (This is gambling. Why not the natural 9.Bb3?)10. - bxc4 11. Re1 Qd6 12. Bf4 Qc6 13. Nxc7+ Kf7 14. Nxa8 Bb7 15. Ne4 (Why is 15. f3 worse?)15.-Bxa8 16. dxc4 (this leads to problems) 16.- Ne6 17. Bd6? (This loses, he had to try 17. Qf3.) 17.- Qxc4? (Instead, 17.- f5 just wins a piece.) 18. b3 Qc6
19. c4? (loses again, why not 19. f3 which indeed could have been played for a few moves now) 19.- Kg8? (Black misses it again. 19.- f5 wins a piece.) 20. Qh5? (misses it a third time) 20.-Ng5? (black is making it more complicated, but 20.- f5 21. Bxe7 Bxe7 22. Qe8+ Bf8 still wins a piece as does 20.- f5 21. Nxf6+ gxf6 22. Qg4+ Ng6). I'll stop here. In what follows there are numerous questionable moves. Nothing wrong with that, analysis is hard and will (almost) always contain questionable moves. Two points though: 1/ This one has already been made - after move 17 (at the very most!) the rest is not relevant for your analysis of the opening. 2/The last part of the game (or analysis?) is quite mysterious. It isn't necessary to give all those moves either. You could just write, at move 43 or something, that it is a technical draw. |
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| Mar-29-04 | | InspiredByMorphy: <tpstar> <It is hard to justify Black
gambiting a Pawn (and/or the exchange) for such unclear compensation> I couldn't agree more. That is one thing I have not gotten out of the analysis I kibitzed. Even with the drawn games, it still seems 2.f6 has no purpose. <The McGregor Line is Black's only hope> Not black's only hope. 3.Ne7 produces a more complicated, but drawable game with good play. <This is not Black to Play and Win> Agreed <this is Black to Play
and Lose> Depending on whose hands the black pieces are in. I would say black to play and draw (with good play of course).< 2 ... f5!? have real sting, but please don't
recommend 2 ... f6?! to anybody.> Thats pretty cool you like the Latvian 2.f5 I couldn't agree more if I were recommending one of the two to somebody. The only time the Damiano is good, is if you are a strong player who can play it good, and are willing to go into it hoping for nothing more than a draw. |
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