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| May-24-07 | | dfelix: <Spiff>
One line I've been looking at lately is 8.Qf3 Qxc2!? 9.Qxa8 Qxc1+ 10.Ke2 Qc4+ with the idea of Qa6. Black has compensation for the exchange because white has an exposed king and an immobile queen on a8. Check with Fritz for more details, but an example of the precariousness of white's position can be seen in 11.Kd1 Qa6 12.Re1 Bd6 13.f4 0-0 and the white queen is lost! |
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| May-24-07 | | MaxxLange: I love this opening. Big fun. When a friend and I made the step up to rated chess, 10 years ago, learning some 2 Knight's lines really built my chess confidence. |
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| May-28-07 | | Spiff: Thanks <dfelix>, that, seems to be an intresting variation |
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| Nov-04-07 | | ongyj: <Spiff> <and others> In the Ulvestad variation with 6.Bxb5 Qxd5, instead I play 7.Be2!?, which I find good for White no matter what Black plays. I'd be glad if anyone can tell me the problems of this move as well as what White/Black should look out for in this line. |
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Dec-01-07
 | | keypusher: Here is a recent traxler from gameknot:
Game notation in PGN format:
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[Event "Chessgames.com April 2007 Invitational"]
[Site "http://gameknot.com/chess.pl?bd=817..."]
[Date "2007.11.30"]
[Round "-"]
[White "keypusher"]
[Black "themadhair"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "1844"]
[BlackElo "2010"]
[TimeControl "604800+259200"]
[Mode "ICS"]
[Termination "normal"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Nxf7 Bxf2+
6. Kxf2 Nxe4+ 7. Ke3 Qh4 8. g3 Nxg3 9. hxg3 Qd4+ 10. Kf3 d5
11. Rh4 e4+ 12. Kg2 O-O 13. Bb3 Rxf7 14. Qg1 (My opponent thought he was worse here: I am not sure.) Be6 15. Nc3 g5
16. Rh6 Raf8 17. Rxe6 (This definitely loses.) Qxg1+ 18. Kxg1 Rf7f1+ 19. Kg2 Rf8f2+ (I was hoping for 19....g4 20. Nxe4) 20. Kh3 h5 (I missed this.)
21. Rg6+ Kh7 22. Rxg5 Rh1# 0-1
---
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| Dec-01-07 | | Akavall: I think it is extremely hard to play white position after 5. Nxf7, (I have no idea what the objective evaluation is). 5. Bxf7 is a lot safer, black doesn't get that crazy attack. |
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Dec-02-07
 | | alexmagnus: <Akavall> I once let my engine play against itself in both variations of Traxler. Both games ended draw, so it seems a refutation doesn't exist. Funny, engine's eveluation after 5.Nxf5 ist over +3 but then going rapidly down. |
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Dec-02-07
| | alexmagnus: 5.Nxf7* |
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Dec-02-07
 | | Open Defence: our own Random Visitor has some thoughts on Maarten DeZeeuw's (? sp) analysis of this line, IMHO I think computers may not give a totally correct picture and this maybe a good line in OTB and even CC where you can suck your opponent into a line that is eventually inferior as computers may give it a high eval initially |
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| Dec-02-07 | | zev22407: In the list of Fischer games whith the 2 knights defence his game against Bisguier from 1963 NY open is missing. |
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| Dec-02-07 | | nescio: <zev22407: In the list of Fischer games whith the 2 knights defence his game against Bisguier from 1963 NY open is missing.> What list is that?
Do you perhaps mean the following game?
Fischer vs Bisguier, 1963 |
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Dec-02-07
| | keypusher: <zev22407> The Bisguier game is C59 in ECO-speak, not C57. That's why it's not listed on this page. Total non-sequitur, but I like calling 4...Bc5 the Wilkes-Barre rather than the Traxler. No offense to Mr. Traxler, who has every right to have the opening named after him, but there are lots of openings that commemorate semi-obscure European masters, but very few named for small towns in Pennsylvania. |
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| Dec-08-07 | | themadhair: <keypusher>
I have had another look at the position after 14.Qg1 and I think you may be right. Black has better than I thought and there was a few lines I had missed.
The following line seems best to me -
16.Qxd4 Nxd4 17.Rh5! Raf8 18.Rxg5+ Kh8 19.Nd1! Nf3 20.d3! Ne1+! (To force the king to h1 - I hadn't seen this and it seems to make all the difference) 21.Kh2 Nf3+ 22.Kh1 Nxg5 (seems the only way to try for the win) 23.Bxg5 Rf1+ 24.Kg2 Bg4. 25.Bh6 and now 26...R8f5!! seems to actually keep winning chances alive.I am tentatively guessing a draw from here but some of the sidelines are sheer crazy going on long into the endgame. Would not like to try this one OTB. |
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Mar-21-08
 | | Chessical: <Keypusher> A great game win or lose! I think <17.Qxd4> draws. The interesting <13.Nh6+> gxh6 14.Be2 Qf2+ 15.Kh1 Nd4 16.Rh2 Nxe2 17.Rxf2 Rxf2 seems to lead to equality. |
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| May-03-08 | | DarthStapler: Wilkes-Barre is the best opening ever |
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| Jul-14-08 | | myschkin: Hi Chess Poster!
One of the sharpest Openings in all of Chess is the Wilkes Barre/Traxler Variation i.e. 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5, but after 5.Bxf7ch Ke7 6.Bd5 Rf8 (If a strong attacking move like this is bad, it is doubtful that 6...Qe8 is any better. White can play 7.Bxc6! in either variation). Losev-Isaev, Trades Union, 1990 saw 6...Rf8 7.Bxc6! dxc6 followed by 8.Qe2? allowing 8...Ng4 9.f3 Bf2ch! (Losev-Isaev saw 9...Nf2). Now Fritz 8 sees a simple tactical shot i.e. 10.Kf1 (Kd1?? Ne3ch  ) Bb6=. The correct way to meet 7...dxc6 is with 8.Nf3!! Game over! Black cannot play 8...Nxe4 because of 9.Qe2 Nxf2 10.Rf1  White picks up two pieces for the Rook. According to Fritz 8, Black has nothing better than 8...Kf7 which allows 9.d3. There is no attack and Black is a Pawn down with no compensation, a winning advantage for White in the hands of say GM Victor Korchnoi. In the game Moody-Fritz 8, White easily neutralized the Black initiative after 9...Kg8 10.Be3 (Offering the trade Bxe3 11.fxe3 Ng4 12.Qe2 Be6 13.0-0 Qe8 14.h3 White can contest the f-file and wins the endgame easily) Bd4?! 11.Nxd4 exd4 (Improving the pawn structure at the expense of handing White a simple middlegame win.) 12.Bf6 Qd6 13.Bxf6 Rxf6 14.0-0 Be6 15.f3 Raf8 16.Rf2 a6 17.a4 (Fritz has White winning easily by move 40 even though White wasted several tempos). Since the computer plays complex middlegames at or beyond World Champion level, this is a valid test of the innovation. The combination of 5.Bxf7ch/Bd5/Bxc6/Nf3 appears to cook the Wilkes Barre/Traxler Variation. Cheers,
Richard Moody Jr.
(http://www.chess-poster.com/english...) |
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| Jan-25-09 | | blacksburg: omg, i just discovered the traxler by accident on fics. omg, that was scary. |
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| Feb-20-09 | | FiveofSwords: Computer evaluation tells you nothing. If the computer evaluates a position differently than I do, the computer is wrong, not me. If you can calculate like a computer and have no problem winning a pawn and having to move your king to the center of the board, then I wish you luck. After you lose like 5000 games in a row this way maybe you will start to see my point. Sure, a computer can play this way, can you? |
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| Feb-20-09 | | MaxxLange: <FiveofSwords> a good point in the kind of crazy positions that you get in the Two Knights. A computer "=" eval may be based on a long sequence of "only" moves that a person is not going to find the constant danger is to think that the computer eval is a Chess Oracle that gives you the final truth |
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| Feb-20-09 | | chessman95: I'm surprised that Black wins almost 50% of his games here, much better than white. I didn't know this line was that weak, but I don't play it very often so it shouldn't affect me very much. Usually from this position I play the Fried Liver Attack, or if black responds with the more commom 3...Bc5 then I usually play the Evans Gambit. (I rarely play 3.Bc4, but I use that and the Scotch Game when I get sick of the Ruy Lopez) |
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| Mar-02-09 | | fref: My favorite move here is 4...Bc5, the Traxler Counter-Attack. |
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| Mar-02-09 | | MaxxLange: pet peeve: 4. Ng5 is not "The Fried Liver Attack" - that is the name for the sequence after 4...d5 5 exd5 Nxd5 6. Nxf7 Kxf7 7. Qf3+ Ke6 I lost a game to 5...b5 yesterday :( |
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| Mar-02-09 | | chessman95: <MaxxLange> True, but it's about the only thing ever played after Ng5, besides the Traxler Gambit. Does anyone know any other lines here? By the way, I don't get how the traxler gambit is "refuted". After Bxf2+, can't you just move your King over to f1 and win the rook? In a book I read on the Two Knights Defense, the "refutation" assumed the king would take the bishop on f2. |
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| Mar-02-09 | | chessman95: The post below was a little unclear. I meant the traxler gambit line where white plays Nxf7, not Bxf7+. |
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| Mar-02-09 | | MaxxLange: the main line with 5...d5 6. exd5 Na5 7. Bb5+ c6 8. dxc6 bxc6 is what is most played, I think. Then 9. Be2 (or the 9. Qf3 line) but never 8. Ba4! the Fried Liver Attack a after 6...Nxd5 7. Nxf7 has been thoroughly analyzed by a new generation of computerized fanatics, some of whom now think that Black is OK or better. The move 7 d4!, the Lolli Attack so-called, is supposed to be much stronger for White anyway; the Nxf7 sac is still on deck in an improved version My understanding of Traxler theory is that the lines after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Ng5 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Nxf7 Bxf2+ are pretty much analyzed out to forced draws, and the move 5. Bxf7+ is better. Then the oddball stuff like 5...Nd4 6. c3 b5 7. Bf1 (the main line, believe it or not) or 5...b5 6. Bf1 gets played some, also. The shame is that most weaker players, and some strong ones, who play 3. Bc4 will just play after ...Nf6 4. d3 |
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