< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Feb-18-14|| ||keypusher: Botvinnik did not neglect the practical, to put it mildly, but I feel obligated to stand up for him as a creative player (though I don't want to take anything away from Bronstein in that regard). Here's a comment from IM Day:|
<Botvinnik was a very interesting player in the 1960's--creative games in his pressure-free retirement years.>
Even before the 60s, if you look at the systems he developed (e.g. his Winawer games, his D44 games), he is doing more creative opening work than Lasker, Capablanca, Alekhine, and most of his successors too.
|Feb-18-14|| ||AsosLight: <Nosnibor>, I said that the score he had against other top players was better than the score Bronstein had despite being 13 year senior. Not that he had better score against anyone.|
|Feb-18-14|| ||Everett: I can only agree with <keypusher>, regarding Botvinnik's own creativity, in his early and late career.|
<Asoslight> what was Bronstein's score vs Geller? 5-5, including 3-1 during the 50's when Bronstein was at his most competitive (and the one loss having a bit of a cloud over it from Zurich '53)
I think other players stayed better for longer than Bronstein, and Sonas backs this up. It is a credit to the other players, and this should not be ignored. It also reflects the mixed feelings Bronstein had with competitive chess. He always seemed quite conflicted about it all, and this lack of clarity translated into weaker results over the long haul, and allowed others to surpass him.
Still love his chess, though.
|Feb-18-14|| ||AsosLight: OK mate Bronstein had a better score against Geller than Botvinnik. What is your point? Botvinnik had a better score against pretty much anybody else.|
I don't know whether is a great idea to rely on Sonas in such occasions. His freakish idea to take into account inactivity as a punishment really destroyed everything, I am sorry.
|Feb-18-14|| ||Everett: <Asoslight> <What is your point?> My point is that you were being glib and imprecise.|
And their records vs Petrosian is a wash, which is also inconvenient to your argument.
I'm not relying on just Sonas. And I suggest not relying on just age to take one player over another. Read the post again. More goes into thinking about careers than just won-lost vs similar opponents. In particular Botvinnik's and Bronstein's careers in the 50's alone were so vastly different as to seriously question any straight-up comparison of results.
The point of bringing up Sonas is to point out just how strong player like Botvinnik was, and for how long. Sure he picked his spots, milked his position, and saved his energy for important events and matches, all luxuries that his contemporaries could not afford. Yet nonetheless he used his advantages exceedingly well, and proved to be a great player for a long time. This comes down to his talent, his hard work, and his desire. Of course, before becoming WC, he was smashing nearly everyone of note convincingly.
In any case, they are both great players, Botvinnik and Bronstein, indispensable to the history of chess.
|Feb-18-14|| ||Gypsy: <Botvinnik had a better score against pretty much anybody else.>|
There are other exceptions, besides Geller; for instance, the exceptions include such greats as Korchnoi, Gligoric, Mikenas, Najdorf, Reshevsky, or Levenfish.
|Feb-18-14|| ||ACMEKINGKRUSHER: Botvinnik vs. Bronstein ?
What about 1951? Did the KGB "INFLUENCE" Bronstein into THROWING game 23 and thus The MATCH??? Just Wondering!?!!
It has already been admitted that The RUSSIANS were "OUT TO GET" BOBBY FISCHER and IN FACT DID all they could to do so!
So much that many of BOBBY's suggestions on game improvement ARE NOW IN EFFECT ! No more adjournments, ETC.
One would have to believe that in fact Bronstein accepted a deal that "He COULD NOT REFUSE" !!
|Feb-19-14|| ||Boomie: <Re: Bronstein throwing the Botvinnik match>|
From the CG intro to the Botvinnik-Bronstein match, which is being rewritten as we speak:
<Bronstein has controversially hinted that there was government pressure on him to lose the match. In a 1993 interview he explained that "There was no direct pressure... But... there was the psychological pressure of the environment..." in part caused by his father's "several years in prison" and what he labels "the marked preference for the institutional Botvinnik." Bronstein concluded somewhat ambiguously that "it seemed to me that winning could seriously harm me, which does not mean that I deliberately lost." From Winter >http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/...
From the same article, Bronstein indicated his favorite chess players were "Tartakower but, above all, Labourdonnais."
I don't think anyone would have guessed that...heh.
|Feb-19-14|| ||offramp: Bronstein is a kvetch.|
|Feb-19-14|| ||AsosLight: <Everett> our discussion is: Bronstein vs Botvinnik. I said Botvinnik was clearly and substantially better in any given angle you may approach the debate. Bronstein though was a brilliant individual on his own.|
Do you have a different opinion? Can you back your opinion with data? If not sorry but I am not a lonely inmate seeking for company, look somewhere else.
|Feb-19-14|| ||AsosLight: OK <Gypsy> you made it clear.
I retreat my argument as wrong.
Botvinnik had not a better score than Bronstein against all or the overwhelming majority of the major players of their era. There are notable cases where it is the other way around.
|Feb-19-14|| ||Everett: <AsosLight> your posts indicate you are not comprehending what I'm saying. To me, it is not a contest, and even if it were, I've offered plenty of material to consider beyond numbers.|
Assessing the value of human lives goes behind numbers, ratios, and equations.
|Feb-19-14|| ||AsosLight: Great. So you belong to this "emotional" category. Cool, this is subjective.|
|Feb-19-14|| ||perfidious: <Everett: Assessing the value of human lives goes behind numbers, ratios, and equations.>|
So it does; and for this we should be thankful.
|Feb-19-14|| ||Everett: < AsosLight: Great. So you belong to this "emotional" category. Cool, this is subjective.>|
I don't belong to any category of your devising. You attempt to make boxes of winners and losers, and I'm saying no to that. You like using numbers, but use them just as subjectively as the most "emotional" person.
Of course, your choice to use only mathematical measurement is subjective, and as <Gypsy> pointed out, not well supported by research.
Both great players though. Let's enjoy their games and careers.
|Feb-19-14|| ||perfidious: <Everett> One trait which I have noticed amongst those who retreat behind numbers and stats in everything, managing to stay cool and unemotional, is that when their bubbles are burst-when they finally realise everything in life cannot thus be quantified-that they have a tendency to go into a rage, that very state which they decried while trying to maintain the pretence of being above silly emotionalism.|
We need look no farther than some of the tirades of <Overgod> for pristine examples of this charming phenomenon.
|Feb-19-14|| ||nok: <You like using numbers, but use them just as subjectively as the most "emotional" person.> The story of CG.|
|Feb-19-14|| ||jamesmaskell: Strong performance by Alexey Sarana finishing 22nd with 5.5/9 and wins against K Grigoryan, Balashov, Iordachescu and Chatalbashev. Picks up 58 Elo, smashing 2300.|
|Feb-24-14|| ||madlydeeply: Bronstein's games are way more funner. but Botvinnik's off board "iron will" to power is fun, too. Fischer learned a lot from Botvinnik's "Iron Will" and thus his drive to the top included mucho mucho psychout. I'm pretty sure my incredible comment will put this discussion to rest. Your welcome.|
|Feb-24-14|| ||Everett: <madlydeeply>
I think a line can be made connecting Botvinnik, Fischer and Kasparov. Even though their styles on the board were different, the preparation, intensity and will to win were the same.
|Feb-24-14|| ||madlydeeply: <Everett> hmm… Fischer and Kasparov follow one Botvinnik line… by creating their own off board hysteria… whereas Karpov followed a divergent Botvinnik line… by inheriting the political structure he created, with all it's benefits. I love thinking puzzling over the politics… puzzling, puzzling…|
|Feb-24-14|| ||madlydeeply: But the true inheritor of Fischer's anti establishment heroism is Korchnoi… defector and valiant anti-communist warrior!|
|Feb-25-14|| ||Everett: < madlydeeply: But the true inheritor of Fischer's anti establishment heroism is Korchnoi… defector and valiant anti-communist warrior!>|
Yes, that's a good comparison on character, agreed.
|Feb-26-14|| ||kingscrusher: Some interesting games of Jobava (who shared first with two others but won on tiebreak apparently):|
|Mar-02-14|| ||waustad: Here's the Diaz response: http://www.chessvibes.com/romantic-...|
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