A bit recent, past few years Vietnam gained more access to cờ vua or chess, while online.

This isn't a particularly good analogy... but, for example, "rounders" is a very popular game among schoolchildren in the UK, but as far as I know we haven't yet produced any baseball stars from that :) (although it's a similar game) If the government suddenly decided to try and make baseball popular in the UK, however, and funded it in schools, then perhaps some of those players who were good at rounders would go on to have baseball careers - but would you really say rounders is the reason the UK started producing baseball players?

<While the financial side of things clearly makes a difference, some players suggest that chess might be becoming more popular in Vietnam at the expense of another board game. Chinese chess, a game that a visitor to Vietnam will see old men playing on sidewalks, is becoming less popular among youth.

Liem says this is because of the Internet. You can play international chess online with people all over the world, he says, while Chinese chess is known only in Asia. Also, you cannot play Chinese chess with a computer, says Liem, who spends much of his time practicing with electronic partners. "There are a few programs, but they are not strong, not professional," he says.

Maybe a more correct form of word transfer would be "People" or "Some People"

But there would be no effect at all if there wouldn't be a basis to build on - and that basis must be a deep embedded culture of high esteem for the value of playing strategic board games - that is considered to be part of the cultural heritage. Then you will get promising talents in Western Chess when the government provides funding.

Just have a lok at Germany (that is my country): There is no high esteem for the merits of strategic gaming, chess players are considered to be nerds, they get no girl friends, the press does not cover chess - since journalists say that chess is boring - , and therefore there are no great young talents from Germany though even the German army does endorse chess players in a special unit.

The negative attitude in the German public - that leads to a negative image of chess players - , that is the key factor, not the factor of public funding as such. And that negative factor has historic and cultural roots in Germany: playing board games is considered to be childish and to be idling away time, that is the Calvinist heritage.

So there is no long tradition of strategic board gaming no deep-rooted culture of strategic board gaming in Germany - and the foregoing fact is the case throughout Western Europe too. People have not sharpened their wits through an endless chain of generations, therefore they are not used to it - and therefore public funding will have zero effect with regard to "breeding" new talents.

The so-called "career" of German woman player Elisabeth Paehtz is ample proof for that: she has had every support one could dream of, but where is she now? A 16-years old Chinese girl is World Champion of the Ladies, not Elisabeth Paehtz.

But in China and Vietnam, there is no negative attitude with regard to board games, countless generations have sharpened their wits by playing Chinese Chess, so the basic "math" of chess is in their veins - since Chinese CHESS and Vietnamese CHESS is CHESS, by any means, therefore, after public funding has stepped in, that public support has had that stunning effect that has lead to the stunning careers of Ms Hou Yifan and GM Liem.

If there would not have been that high esteem throughout China and Vietnam for achieving success in strategic board games - that has its roots in the culture of XiangQi aka Co Tuong - , then we would never have seen talents like Ms Hou Yifan and GM Liem.

And, dear <Thanh Phan>, thank you that you point out to the fact that the clip - that features Co Nguoi - talks a lot about Martial Arts! But that is no contradiction with regard to my thesis.

First of all, by talking about Martial Arts in the context of chess, they DO TALK about CHESS too since CHESS (Asian-style) is considered to be the MENTAL VERSION of MARTIAL ARTS conforming to the tradition of the Taoists who have cultivated chess (Chinese style) and who have cultivated Martial Arts - just think of the great Taoist sage CHEN TUAN who has been a master in Martial Arts and who has been a master in Chinese Chess (by beating the later Emperor Song Taizu in a famous match).

Therefore the combination of Martial Arts and Chinese/Vietnamese Chess - that is featured in the clip at Youtube.com - is based on the deeper logic of those two twin versions of Martial Arts, Martial Arts as such and XiangQi/Co Tuong being the MENTAL version of Martial Arts.

Apart from that the combination of Martial Arts and mental Martial Arts, namely Chinese/Vietnamese Chess on the occasion of an event of CO NGUOI - which is CHESS!, no doubt about that - , that is a great way to do propaganda for CHESS as such!

Just have a look at the kids in the public, they are thrilled by the show of Martial Arts and Chess - that is the best way to make kids interested in chess, be it Chinese/Vietnamese Chess or Western Chess!

These kids in Vietnam who have watched a show of Martial Arts in Chess, they would never get the (stupid) idea that chess is boring and not sexy - whereas the kids in Germany, they think that chess is just for boring nerds who will never get a girl friend!

Therefore the clip about Co Nguoi in Vietnam has a lot to do with chess - since it is a great example how one can do effective propaganda for chess!

I must admit I've gone from having quite a lot of sympathy for your position... to feeling you're completely misguided on the issue. Sorry!

We've seen greater talents around the world than Le and Hou Yifan, and in countries with no tradition of respecting boardgames. You also can't say that funding and government initiatives can't make a game popular - take chess in the Soviet Union (yes, it was played before that, but hardly as a national sport).

The "generations" argument is more about words than reality, I think. The English article Thanh Phan quotes actually points out that Le Quang Liem's parents didn't play Chinese chess. For a child to take up chess seriously before he's about 10 (and otherwise you've got little chance), then it's just a matter of being exposed to the game. That's not based on an ancient love of the game (kids don't think in those terms) but just having the chance to play, enjoying it and getting encouragement from parents. Maybe if the parents like Chinese chess that could help, but it could also hinder (the big problem is that anyone who's got to a professional level playing Chinese chess is probably too late to switch and pick up the different skills/experience needed for Western chess - if the parents encourage the Chinese game instead there's probably very little chance of the child succeeding in Western chess).

Traditional Chinese values claims that playing with objects weakens one's ideals/aspiration in life. (the original line is from<ShangShu>"one who plays with people loses morals,one who plays with objects loses ideals",there were some historical stories behind this line,so it was just a historical comment,turning to an idiom afterwards)

<Nightsurfer>: I would like to reply to your posts here in some detail.

First of all, I'd like to point out a clear-cut mistake in your ChessBase article you linked to. Instead of the 1,2 per cent you claimed, Germany's 92.000 organized chess players amount to only 0,11 percent of it's population (82 million).

Secondly, I shall respond to your arguments regarding the postion of chess in German culture.

You write: <There is no high esteem for the merits of strategic gaming> <The negative attitude in the German public>[towards chess]

I cannot conclusively refute that, but what I can say is that chess is very widespread in Germany. Just consult the statistics at http://ratings.fide.com/topfed.phtml An excerpt:

(Number of active FIDE-
rated players)

Germany 8319
Russia 5743
USA 1206

Of course, there are the usual reservations (the number of FIDE players doesn't represent the number of chessplayers in total). Still, these numbers ought to mean something.

In addition to that, chess is being recommended for highly gifted children as far as I know, so it is hardly lowly thought of.

<the press does not cover chess>

Indeed. The press does not cover chess to such an extent that even yours truly was portrayed in a regional newspaper without having had any remarkable success at said game. Add to that a number of chess columns (I admit it is probably shrinking) in various newspapers as well as various recent chess-related articles in almost any periodical for the obvious conclusion that the German press does indeed cover chess.

The television programs, of course, largely ignore it.

<And that negative factor has historic and cultural roots in Germany: playing board games is considered to be childish and to be idling away time, that is the Calvinist heritage.>

Quite staggering regarding a country where regularly playing board games in a family context is the rule, rather than the exception and where more of them are created every year than in any other country! In any case, most German Protestants are Lutherans. Calvinism ist only widespread in East Frisia.

<foregoing fact is the case throughout Western Europe too>

Is there a country where chess and draughts are more popular than in Holland?

<The so-called "career" of German woman player Elisabeth Paehtz is ample proof for that>

This is just one player, and a rather successful one as well. There are ever so many reasons why somebody doesn't (hasn't yet) become World champion.

So why, you will ask, are there no German world class talents. I think it is because the German Chess Federation (DSB) has been promoting amateur chess over professional play for about 100(!) years. Already Lasker complained about that.

<But in China and Vietnam, there is no negative attitude with regard to board games, countless generations have sharpened their wits by playing Chinese Chess, so the basic "math" of chess is in their veins>

So you claim that acquired skills/ traits are passed on to the next generation? I'm not much of a biologist, but in this context it seems dubious. At any rate, Elisabeth Paehtz's father is a GM.

Yana Melnikova - Tell us about your road to success. With whom do you work?

Even worse: Chess conforming to the rules of FIDE is just a new variant of chess, because the rules of Chinese Chess XIANGQI have not been changed since more than 1000 years whereas the rules of the FIDE-variant of chess have been invented just 500 years ago. One more bad news: chess conforming to the rules of FIDE is NOT THE MOST POPULAR VERSION OF CHESS since more people play Chinese chess around the globe, a fair guess is that round about 500 million people play Chinese chess thus making Chinese chess the most popular board game on this planet!

One should know that before starting to argue whether the deep-rooted culture of Chinese chess - which happens to be the same variant of chess that is that popular in Vietnam too - has something to do (or may have nothing to do?!) with the success of Chinese and Vietnamese players on the field of FIDE-chess in recent years.

I take the chance now to say thank you to <Ladolcevita> for posting some clarifying words with regard to this topic. But I am a little bit surprised that you , dear <Ladolcevita>, have stated that <Chinese culture considers a game as nothing but a game>. That seems to be in contradiction to the traditional view that <The Four Arts of the Chinese Scholar ... are qin (music), qi (strategy game), shu (calligraphy) and hua (painting)>, conforming to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_A... , the foregoing concept has been outlined by Zhang Yanyuan's <Fashu Yaolu> from the Tang Dynasty and later by Li Yu (1610 - 1680) who has written the <Xianqing ouqi>. One may argue whether <qi> exclusively refers to WeiQi (aka: Go) or to Chinese chess XiangQi as well, but since the final syllable of XiangQi is <qi>, therefore it does not seem to be a distortion of the concept of the Four Arts of the Chinese Scholar to assume that <qi> may be either WeiQi or XiangQi, at least the latter assumption is the current position among the experts who teach and study at the Institutes of Confucius nowadays.

But maybe I have gotten something wrong, dear <Ladolcevita>?! Then please explain it to me! Xie xie!

During the season of Tet, there are events of Human Chess throughout Vietnam, as part of festivals at temples or on public squares. By following the link as follows there is one of many photos that depict those amzaing events of public chess in Vietnam: http://vietnamtravelgo.com/wp-conte...

There is even a pagoda that is dedicated to the legendary player De Thich, that is the famous Chua Vua at Hanoi - dear <Thanh Phan>, that is unique in the world, and then you will tell me that XiangQi/Co Tuong is on the decline in Vietnam and that a deep-rooted culture of chess throughout Vietnam has nothing to do with the rise of bright young players in Western Chess quite recently?!

I do not agree with you. All right, maybe the parents of GM Liem may not have played chess - Asian style - , so what?! Even in a country where chess is a part of the historic and cultural heritage there may be some people who do not like that game, that is normal, but that does not change the fact that GM Liem has grown up in an atmosphere where chess is part of the folklore, and that cultural atmosphere can not be ignored when we talk about the background of the rise of stars like GM Liem ... may there be some Russian / Eastern European coaches of FIDE-chess around or not.

I do not want to argue anymore, just have a look at one more clip as follows: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX2n... , events like that can be watched everywhere in Vietnam, and that is unique in the world. Therefore nobody in Vietnam would look down at chess players as being some nerds idling away time with some strange wooden pieces - a common prejudice that is wide-spread in Germany, and even <nummerzwei> does know that - though he tries to create an image of Germany where chess playing is understood as common and as popular as in Vietnam and in China.

But, sorry, dear <nummerzwei>, of course I would wish that you are right, but unfortunately you are wrong!

In China there is a pavillion of Chinese chess that has been built on the holy Mt. Hua Shan, just have a look at the picture as follows: http://www.qigongchinatrip.com/prin... !

Please tell me where there is a similar site in Germany? A similar place that is dedicated to CHESS!! Please tell me where there is a similar site throughout Europe, not to mention America, Africa or Australia?!

There is none! Not enough with that: In China there are many poems that are dedicated to the Art of XiangQi, and even Ho Chi Minh has written poems about that. The foregoing would be unthinkable in the cultural context of Germany and Western Europe, and therefore I do not give up my thesis, dear <polarmis> and dear <nummerzwei>, namely that the deep-rooted culture of playing strategic games - in particular Chinese chess - is the background and the deeper reason of the stunning rise of young bright stars from Asia in FIDE-chess nowadays!

Whereas the absence of a deep-rooted culture of strategic gaming throughout Western Europe, in particular: Germany, is the deeper reason why chess is on the decline there, and the latter VERY SAD fact can not be denied, dear <nummerzwei>, you can not ignore that, just have a look at the on-going discussion these days about the decline of the German Chess Federation!

Logically I don't think your arguments make much sense. A centuries-old tradition can't be the key factor in a change happening now - that has to be something that's changed recently (e.g. perhaps the government, on the basis of a minister who spent time in Russia, deciding to fund Western chess).

It also doesn't make sense to use that as an explanation of why chess is declining in the West, if it is. And how does a lack of tradition explain a decline in Russian chess - rather than, e.g. the collapse of the whole system with the end of the Soviet Union (plus the popularity of other sports etc. etc.).

<Once more again: It is always a good idea to think out of the box. Asia is the continent of the future, therefore we better start to learn from the Asian role model, and that will be an excellent idea on the field of chess!>

But what can we learn from Asia in terms of what you're telling us!? The West needs to institute a thousand-year tradition of playing a slightly different board game? Of course, we could try and learn from China and Vietnam, but that would mean government funding of chess schools and coaches and so on. The problem with trying to introduce that in Western democracies is that, probably rightly, proposals for extensive funding of chess would be voted down. Even in Russia it's not easy to get the money you'd require.

p.s. and on your "bad news" and "even worse" etc. about there being other forms of chess. Just who on earth is supposed to be upset by the fact there are other similar board games!?? That's just empty and slightly absurd rhetoric.

First teachings also regional championships that any can gain.

Second incentives and paid travel to challenges at home and out of state.

Third internet to play online against outside world to gain current ideas what works and what not work in chess.

You are perfectly right in referring to this traditional view as a response to that rather crude statement of mine. <Qin><Qi><Shu><Hua> are very well established as the Four Arts of the ancient Chinese Scholar.But it is not without reason that the common sense drived me to make a statement like that.Let me explain at length.

First of all,you should know,<Qi>does refer to Wei Qi<Go> particularly,if not 100-percent exclusively.As a Chinese,naturally reading so many ancient books,stories,yet I havent known one case where Qi wasnt WeiQi. In addition,<Qin>refers to Guqin,not Guzheng,though Guzheng is much more popular nowadays;<Shu>is Chinese calligraphy,and <Hua>is Chinese painting.

As wonderful as these four arts are,however,in the ancient times, scholars are,at the first place,supposed to master the other four kind of knowledge:<Jing><Shi><Zi><Ji>.

Jing refers to Confucius works
Shi refers to the works on history
Zi refers to works of different renowned schools other than Confucius school,very inclusive indeed,for instance there are works of philosophy,geography,astronomy,law,medicine,math- s,military,agriculture,logic,taoism,and some I dont know how to translate,and so on. Ji refers poems,essays, lyrics,various kind of verses,critiques,et cetera.

Such knowledge are more essential,while <qinqishuhua>is more like leisure time activities for the well-educated people,and especially,for the girls and ladies of noble and wealthy families. Nowadays,we also tend to say a girl who has knowledge of all these four arts as well-educated.But about boys,not so much.For we also have you know,martial arts,which is especiall true and popular in ancient times,and at that time,boys are also supposed to achieve high position in the government,which demands a great knowledge of <JingShiZiJi>....

There are many famous stories about this musical instrument. One is about true friendship----Boya,a musician,a Guqin performer,an official of JinState(in ChunqiuZhanguo Period),began a journey to ChuState on an official mission. On August 15th(Chinese Calendar),a day the moon is supposed to be bright and full,he stopped his boat by a rocky moutain due to the boisterous waves and storms.The beautiful scenery and moon inspired him to play upon his Guqin.One song after another,and he didnt realize that there was another person standing on the bank,listening to his playing.And when he saw the man,he broke one string of his Qin.Boya gazed upon this man with doubts.And the listener made an self-introduction,that he was just a woodcutter ,going back home,a bit later than usual,thus having the chance to meet him playing the Guqin. Boya observed in the moonlight,and confirmed his words,yet he still couldnt believe how a woodcutter could understand his music.So he asked"what is the song I was playing just now",the woodman replied"Sir,it was a song of a disciple of Confucius,YanHui,and you broke your string in the fourth line".Of course,it's perfectly correct.So Boya was excited and invited him to the boat.The woodcutter said then"this is Yaoqin,some say it was made by Fuxi(ps:a king in legend)..." Boya began to respect this woodman,so he played the Guqin for the woodman(I dont know how the broken string worked,the story goes like this),and when he played high,thinking about the moutain,the woodcutter said you were playing the music of high moutain,when Boya played low,thinking about the water,the man said you were playing the music of flowing water. Boya was so delighted and suprised,none in the past has ever understood his music,yet this woodcutter understood everything.So they talked about more things as though they were old friends.Boya learned that this woodcutter's name was ZhongZiqi.So they become sworn brothers(a popular ancient Chinese tradition,sworn brothers or sworn sisters).They promised to meet the next year's mid-autumn day(Yes,August 15th in Chinese Calendar).... The next year,Boya came back,in the bank of this Hanyang river,waited and waited,yet nobody appeared.He sat down and played upon his Guqin,yet nobody appeared.The second day,he went about that area,and asked about ZhongZiqi.An old man told Boya Ziqi was already dead of some epidemic,and before he died,Ziqi told other people to bury him on the bank,so he could listen to Boya play the next mid-autumn day... Boya then found his tomb,and played his music <High Mountain and Flowing Water>, and when he finished the song,he went to a cyan stone and broke his Guqin into pieces.He said"My only true friend(ZhiYin) has gone,whats the point of playing this Guqin any more?"

So nowadays we have these chinese word<zhiyin>,(which literally means "know music",understand the music another people performs,and as a fixed word,it means a true friend,a bosom friend or someone who is able to appreciate your mind,your talent,etc) and<GaoshanLiushui>(high mountain and flowing river).Sometimes we say,in the high mountain and flowing river,we meet a true friend,and suchlike...

There are also some other famous stories about Guqin,but clearly since I wasnt able to re-tell them in concise English,I'll just stop here. Nowadays,people have the Top10 list for Guqin,<High Mountain and Flowing River>(Not sure if it is the original song in the story,or some songs reinvented in the later dynasties)ranks in the second place.But I particularly like the No.7<Yang guan san die>(Three refrains in Yangguan),for it is based on one of my favourite poems in Tang Dynasty,about friends departing,and the melody is in traditional Chinese style too.