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Oct-24-15 | | thomastonk: <jnpope> I think all kinds of stupid mistakes are possible. In Lewis's books Popert has no initials; whoever wrote this list, he could have added the 'Esq.' to be on the safe side. Or 'John Popert' in Berger's Jahrbuch: this could be a contration from John and Popert in 'The Philidorian': <Dr. Smeichael, of Hamburg, is a stout player, as are M. M. John, and Popert. The men of Hamburg conquered those of Berlin, a few years since, in a match by correspondence.> This quote, already given by <tabanus> above, shows probably already another mistake: according to Bledow, the correspondence game was played by John and Schmeichel(!) (Hamburg) against Mendheim (Berlin). +++
I think I have found an earlier source for the well-known fragment Horwitz v Popert than those mentioned by Winter: it was already published in Hirschberg's "Deutsche Schachzeitung", Leipzig 1846, pages 233-4. I hope this link works: https://books.google.com/books?id=t... +++
I stop here. |
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Oct-25-15
 | | jnpope: This incomplete book appears to discuss the Popert and von Halle families: https://books.google.com/books?id=4... My eyes/brain have trouble dealing with the gothic German typeface... |
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Oct-25-15 | | thomastonk: <jnpope: the gothic German typeface> I can read it easily, and I will study it tomorrow in some detail. |
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Oct-25-15
 | | jnpope: Great. Page 67 seems to give a list of Poperts. A lot of the names match with what Tabanus has already uncovered: https://books.google.com/books?id=4... |
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Oct-26-15
 | | Tabanus: Samuel Meyer Popert died 10 Feb. 1851:
"Whereas Samuel Meyer Popert late of the City of Hamburgh died on the tenth day of February one thousand eight hundred and fifty one having made his last Will and Testament and thereof appointed Joel Aron Von Halle and Julius Ernst Oppenheim, Executors, ..." etc., http://interactive.ancestry.com.au/... I think the "J." before may be an "S." after all? So that our man is S. M. Popert. Just a theory! I also guess the M's and W's have been misinterpreted before. |
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Oct-26-15 | | thomastonk: My first posting here was not on Popert himself, and originally I didn't intend to post anything on him. But now it seems useful to report a little bit from some research I did some time ago. At some point I searched the name Popert in several newspapers from Hamburg and Altona in the 1830s and 1840s. I found a lot, and many of them could easily be identified as Jews (say Samuel, Abraham), while others had forenames being more common among Chistians, but Jews often tended to adapt. I believe that all Poperts of Hamburg were Jewish or of Jewish descent, and I deduce this from the rarity of the name Popert now (see http://www.verwandt.de/karten/relat...), as well as from their professions. About "our" Popert. I found only one source that could be possibly attributed to him: a merchant (German: Kaufmann) Popert from London resided for some time in 1839 in the 'Hotel zum wilden Mann' (or so). No forename, no initials. About the many other Poperts. Many of them have the middle name 'Meyer'. This is somehow a tradition which helps us to relate them to each other. (So far as I know, Jews in German countries got their family names in the 18th century; the family name or middle name 'Meyer', which appears in many different spellings, comes from a Jewish forename, etc, etc.) However, my exprience with similar Jewish middle names is: they are not quite permanent. I think this should always kept in mind. Now about <jnpope>'s book. It is a juridical expertise in a hereditary case. Page 67 lists the children, which are all wards in 1805 (I hope ward is the correct translation of the German word 'Mündel'; in particular, they are not of full age). They are brothers and sisters, and they all have the middle name 'Meyer', which appears also as a forename of one of the relatives. I will pick two of them. The name Samuel Meyer Popert appeared quite often in the newspapers that I have seen; but I found no evidence that he had any relation to England and he probably lived all these years in Hamburg; together with the date of death provided by <tabanus>, he probably can be excluded. The second one is Wolf Meyer Popert; you remember that Townsend claimed that our Popert is William M. Popert. William is definitely no German forename. But Wolf and William remind me to Steinitz, of course! Until he moved to Vienna at the age of about 22, his name was Wolf, which is a Jewish forename; he changed it to Wilhelm, and later he changed it again and became William. I think Wolf is a candidate to be our Popert, but, of course, I have not forgotten the initials 'H.W.' in Walker's book. |
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Oct-26-15
 | | Tabanus: <tt> I like most the no. 2 option. If there is any <Wolf Meyer Popert> to be found. Wolff Levin Popert died in 1791, and Meyer Wolff Popert in 1813. |
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Oct-26-15 | | thomastonk: I think I should add some information on the juridical expertise in this hereditary case, although it does not help here (but it possibly saves the time of others). The complete title is: <"Gutachten nach jüdischen Gesetzen über die Frage : Kann ein vor einem christlichen Gericht von einem jüdischen Ehepaar nach christlichen Gesetzen errichtetes wechselseitiges Testament, vorherige bündigst stipulirte Erb-Verträge desselben vernichten?"> That is, this expertise deals with the validity of a mutual will of a Jewish couple, recorded at a Christian law court, where before Jewish hereditary contracts existed. Since the first pages of the document are missing, it is not easy to determine the acting figures. In 1803, the Jew and banker <Salomon Joel von Halle> from Berlin wanted to marry a woman named <Jettchen (Jette) Levin Popert>); she was not of full age and so their wardens made two contracts with Salomon, wherein also the heritage was fixed in several cases, e.g. if she would die childless in the first year of the marriage. They married 24 May 1804 in Berlin, and her properties in Hamburg and Kassel were given to her husband. Five weeks later, on 26 June 1804, the couple asked a Royal law court to record their mutual will. And here the husband was determined to be the sole heir. Then the wife died on 18 January 1805. <Jette Popert> was an ophan. <Meyer Wolf Popert> was her uncle, and he was already in 1792 determined to be the sole heir, if she would die without another heir. In this juridical case the children of this <Meyer Wolf Popert> had two wardens, which were selected by the municipal authorities of Hamburg and the Jewish Community Altona. These children are listed on page 67, beginning with <Levin Meyer> and ending with <Samson Meyer Popert>. |
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Oct-26-15
 | | Tabanus: There is indeed a "Wolf Meyer" on that list. |
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Oct-26-15 | | thomastonk: <Tabanus: There is indeed a "Wolf Meyer" on that list.> That' why I wrote <I will pick two of them>! ;-) <jnpope, Tabanus> Another thought about careful reading. William Greenwood Walker was an old man (see 'CPC', vol. IV, page 372). He was the Hon. Secretary of the Westminster Chess Club in 1836. He probably had there a list for the subscribers, and Popert wrote his name to that list with his German handwriting. Probably some type of <Kurrentschrift> (see https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuts...). Now I ask you: can we exclude that this old man read <H.W.>, where Popert wrote <W.M.>? Too much speculation, of course. And unprovable. |
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Oct-26-15
 | | Tabanus: We'd need to see the original documents.
<John Townsend, however, has found an earlier reference (5 Nov. 1835) from the records of the London Chess Club to a 'W. Popert' and suspects that the initial 'H.' in Walker's book simply meant 'Herr'.> The cut off letter in the Alien Arrivals of March 1836 we cannot see either. It may even be <W.> M. Popert (the M is pretty certain there). |
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Oct-26-15
 | | jnpope: Augustus Mongredien writes to have encountered Popert from 1834-1836 in England.
https://books.google.com/books?id=3... Are there arrival records from 1834 that could be checked? And I have a rough date for when Popert left England, which may also be useful:
<The celebrated metropolitan player, M Popert, has left England for his native country, Germany, where, we believe, he intends remaining two or three years, in consequence of ill health.>
source: Bell's Life in London, 11 September 1842.
If we show that a particular Popert arrived in 1834 (and possibly left in 1834 and returned in 1836) and departed again in 1842 it would help support the case. <Meyer Popert, Wife & 2 Daugters 18 & 14, from Hamburg to London 4 July 1836.> I did find evidence that a "Meyer H. Popert" had returned to Hamburg prior to 1845 as he turns up on a donations list:
https://books.google.com/books?id=e... There are a number of games where Popert is listed as M. Popert. I've always assumed it was just "monsieur", but being that he was German and not French wouldn't he be referred to as Herr Popert? Perhaps Meyer Popert (or Meyer H. Popert) is correct? I'm not exactly sure of M. H. Popert's travel itinerary, but perhaps this is another candidate to check? I like the W. M. Popert hypothesis, but I think M. H. Popert is possible. And I'm thinking John/Johann Popert less likely. If we could ever establish a death record in Hamburg, 1846, for one of our candidates:
http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/...
I don't have an account (powered by Ancestory.com, not sure if an Ancestory.com ID will work). |
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Oct-27-15
 | | Tabanus: I think there are no online Hamburg records before 1850. They are adding records at http://www.genealogienetz.de/verein... (requires membership). For England passenger lists, it seems they are now "in process of being digitised by Ancestry.co.uk." No indexed Popert in the Alien lists before 1836. And http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/.... |
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Oct-27-15
 | | Tabanus: <<Meyer Popert, Wife & 2 Daugters 18 & 14, from Hamburg to London 4 July 1836.> I was pretty sure of the J. in front: "Meyer Popert" + family in the book entry, and signed "J. M. Popert". Alternatively: "H. M. Popert", as the gothic H can look like a J. It can also be "S. M. Popert". But not "M. M. Popert" or "M. H. Popert". |
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Oct-27-15
 | | jnpope: I've found M. Szen, M. Bilguier and M. De Lasa used throughout Bell's Life in London. Apparently "Herr" was not common usage. |
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Oct-27-15 | | Paint My Dragon: Tim Harding seems quite comfortable with 'William Popert' and, in his 'Eminent Victorian Chess Players', ascribes to the theory that the 'H' is either an error or indicates 'Herr'. Harding has seen the London Chess Club membership records, where Popert, a new member in 1831, is listed as Popert, W, esq. A further citation from the publication 'British Miscellany' (March 1841, p.141) appears to give 'William Popert' as the player of the black pieces in one of the match games with Staunton from 1940/41. |
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Oct-27-15
 | | jnpope: No such game on page 141 of the British Miscellany for 1841. I don't trust Harding too much with names. He couldn't even get my name correct, calling me Richard Pope on his website... |
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Oct-27-15 | | Paint My Dragon: <jnpope>Sorry, that was my fault - I just re-checked, and I should have typed <page 161>. |
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Oct-27-15 | | Paint My Dragon: I've not seen it myself, but if you have access, it may be worth a look. Harding gives the players' names, then the citation, and finally the game moves, so it is not completely obvious whether the citation relates to what follows or precedes, or both. |
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Oct-27-15 | | zanzibar: <I don't trust Harding too much with names. He couldn't even get my name correct, calling me Richard Pope on his website...> Wow, that's surprising. Hope he's corrected the error by now... I guess not!
http://www.chessmail.com/research/h... |
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Oct-28-15
 | | Tabanus: p. 161, it says <A match of Chess between Messrs. P----t and St-----n, two of the first Metropolitan players> etc. http://dbooks.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/boo... |
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Oct-28-15 | | thomastonk: The <British Miscellany> for 1841, page 161 gives "St-----n" and "P-----t". Page 256: "Mr. P-----", but he can be identified as George Perigal. Page 284: again "P----t" and "St-----n".
Harding's "William" is adopted from Townsend (see page 355). ---
The thesis "H.=Herr" has a weak point: Walker's entry is "Popert, H.W., esq."; if the thesis would hold, this would mean that Walker combined two titles in a strange fashion compared to what he did with the entries of the English and French men. |
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Oct-28-15 | | Paint My Dragon: Oh well, no further forward then. Sadly, I don't have Townsend's book to see where he got it from. |
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Oct-28-15
 | | Tabanus: https://archive.org/stream/chesspla... is "The British Miscellany, and Chess Player's Chronicle" of 1841. On page 23, a game between the Honorary Secretary of the London Chess Club and <Mr. W. P. of the same Club.> |
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Oct-28-15
 | | Tabanus: The Index of the book says that games by Mr. P----t are on pages 2, 3, 20, 22, 65, etc. (many games). Page 23 is not mentioned, but 22 is .. |
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