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Oct-28-15 | | thomastonk: <Tabanus: On page 23, a game between the Honorary Secretary of the London Chess Club and <Mr. W. P. of the same Club.>> Interesting! The Honorary Secretary of the London Chess Club is Perigal, of course. And Mr W.P. is Wellington Pulling according to Jay Whitehead, who gives 1838 as the year. |
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Oct-28-15
 | | Tabanus: Pulling? Hah! The Index says Mr. P----t (Popert I assume) played the games on page 85 (Mr. P---), p. 180 (Mr. P.), p. 341 (Mr. P.), p. 359 (Mr. P.). Then who is Mr. W. P., I wonder ;) |
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Oct-28-15 | | thomastonk: <Tabanus: Pulling? Hah! ...> I don't understand you, but possibly you didn't understand me. The game on pages 23-24 is contained in the Jay Whitehead database as <Wellington Pulling v George Perigal, London 1838>. |
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Oct-28-15
 | | Tabanus: <tt> I'm just trying to establish the <W.> Popert. If Mr. Whitehead says Wellington Pulling, I can't object, but I wonder where he has it from. |
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Oct-28-15 | | thomastonk: <tabanus: <tt> I'm just trying to establish the <W.> Popert.> Yes, I know. <If Mr. Whitehead says Wellington Pulling, I can't object, but I wonder where he has it from.> Just a simple question: do you know that database and its history? If not, I could explain ... |
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Oct-28-15
 | | Tabanus: No, I don't! I don't know much about any database, including my own :) |
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Oct-28-15 | | thomastonk: <Tabanus: No, I don't! I don't know much about any database, including my own :)> ;-). I got this database several years ago from this site: http://www.kwabc.org/index.php/furt.... At that time, Jay's homepage was still online, where additional information could be found. I couldn't find it right now. The late Jay Whitehead collected games of the 19th century prior to 1867 (, i.e., the same period as this Oxford Enzy does). This database is the best I know; not faultless, but far better than the others. It has done me good service hundreds(!) of times. The only problem is: the key to the sources is lost (as far as I know)! Every game has a 5-digit number; the game in question has '01676'. This number points to a source, but to which one is unknown. However, consecutive numbers often belong to the same magazine, book, or chess column. If I am in search for a primary source and if I have no idea, I usually look at these numbers. This was often successful. Since Whitehead digitized the games from original sources, an information like 'London 1838' indicates that there is a source, which gives this information. |
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Oct-28-15
 | | jnpope: As Popert is identified as Mr. P--t in the index and every game heading mentioned in that index for the 1841 CPC lists him as Mr. P---t, it would be odd to identify him as "Mr. W. P." for a single game. I suspect Jay's identification as Wellington Pulling is correct, but I will keep my eyes open for an alternate source. |
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Oct-28-15
 | | jnpope: The two games before (Turner-Stanley x2) and one game after (Eckstadt-Pollmacher) Jay's 01676 are from the 1850s, so I suspect it was reprinted in Jay's original source with the Pulling identification. |
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Oct-28-15
 | | jnpope: That is, games 01673, 01674 and 01677. I don't seem to have a 01675. |
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Oct-28-15 | | thomastonk: <jnpope: so I suspect it was reprinted in Jay's original source with the Pulling identification.> I agree. 01676-01679 have all the same line of the King's Gambit; could be an opening book, or an article. 01678 is from 1865, which could be of additional help. |
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Oct-28-15
 | | jnpope: Here is my timeline of chess-based material
---
1830: Game against McDonnell
Chess Studies, 1844, p36
"...Popert, a strong amateur, who in earlier years had played much with MacDonnell."
Chess Studies, 1844, p(ix)
(can this date be confirmed?)
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1834: Mongredien recalls Popert in England 1834-1836
British Chess Magazine, v8, 1888, p272
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1834: Played both McDonnell and La Bourdonnais (games exist)
Chess Studies, 1844, p27 & p94
Jay Whitehead database (game 06622)
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1836: "Popert, H. W., esq." listed as a subscriber
Selection of Games at Chess, W. G. Walker, London, 1836, p279 ---
1836: December plays Slous
Chess Player's Chronicle, v7, 1846, p366
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1837-1840 Many games printed showing him active in England ---
1840: December plays La Bourdonnais
Bell's Life in London, 1841.03.28
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1840: Plays Staunton (Old London Chess Club)
Chess Player's Chronicle, v1, 1841 (various games given)
"In 1840, Staunton, when quite a young player, won a match with Popert..."
Chess Studies, 1844, p(ix)
(first match? first part of a single match?)
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1841: Plays Staunton (Goode's Chess Rooms)
Chess Player's Chronicle, v2, 1842, p3 & p20 (games)
"In 1841 a young player, Howard Staunton, having encountered many English players with great success, challenged Mr. Popert to play a match, the winner of the first eleven games to be the victor. Mr. Popert accepted, and after one of the hardest and best-contested fights on record, Mr. Staunton won by the odd game."
Chess Player's Chronicle (Third Series) 1859, London, 1860, p194
(second match? second part of a single match?)
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1842: returns to Germany before September 11, 1842.
"...M Popert, has left England for his native country, Germany..."
Bell's Life in London, 1842.09.11
(Probably to Hamburg)
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1844: Is in Hamburg before February 18, 1844.
"Popert, now of Hamburg;"
Bell's Life in London, 1844.02.18
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1844: Plays Horwitz in Hamburg
Le Palamède, v5 n12, 15 November, 1842, p234
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1846: Dies?
(Is there a report from 1846?)
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1847: Earliest mention of his death?
"...the late Mr. Popert."
Chess Player's Chronicle, n18 v8, 1 May 1847, p137
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1891: "John Popert" given by Bachmann
Schach-jahrbuch, Passau, 1891, p18
(where does Bachmann get John?)
--- |
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Oct-28-15 | | Paint My Dragon: Not exactly a contemporary source, but Sergeant uses H.W. Popert in his 'A Century of British Chess' (1934) - both in the index and the body text. In a footnote (p.50), Saint-Amant refers to him as M. Popert; doubtless the M. is an abbreviated 'monsieur', but I wonder if other mentions of the initial 'M' have erroneously stemmed from St. Amant's writings in Le Palamede? |
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Oct-28-15 | | Paint My Dragon: I'm not helping. I see <jnpope> is already familiar with a preponderance of M. given as a forename initial, even from Bell's Life In London. |
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Oct-29-15 | | zanzibar: RE: <Whitehead's Database> I never heard of it before <thomastonk>'s post above. I've downloaded it, and converted it into PGN and SCID versions. It has 14619 games. It's not entirely perfect, there are 13 games by NN and 695 by "?". And here's a few odd player names <
Games Oldest Newest Elo Name
1 1 1849 - 1849 0 (3)l(9)s*
2 2 1850 - 1850 0 (7)h
3 4 1837 - 1837 0 : color unknown
4 695 1800 - 1866 0 ?
5 2 1867 - 1867 0 Aツ
6 23 1842 - 1864 0 A
7 2 1860 - 1860 0 A, L. v.
8 1 1838 - 1838 0 A_____r
>
And there's duplicate names, with * and ' - which may be a code of some kind. I just installed it, so these comments are just first impressions. |
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Oct-29-15 | | zanzibar: And here's Donaldson's comments on the condition of the DB, retrieved from the Internet Wayback site: <
Dear Friends,
Attached is a database that IM Jay Whitehead, who died earlier today, was working on for the past twenty years or so. Jay had his laptop stolen in Buenos Aires a few years ago and shortly after he lost the flash drive that had the backup data. Fortunately he had given the Mechanics' Institute CC a copy of the games which got had merged into a historical database we maintain. Later when he needed the games it was pretty much possible to separate them as Jay used an internal numbering system that corresponded with a excel spread sheet he maintained that contained additional information. My understanding is this excel file was primarily a record of where Jay found each game but am not certain having never had a copy of the information. Recently Elliott Winslow passed on a pair of old disks that he was safeguarding for Jay that might contain this information. Elliott was a very good friend to Jay in many ways the past few weeks and helped to make his last days peaceful. If the attempt to retrieve the data is successful you will receive it. Hopefully this will be the case as it would be wonderful to know where he found individual games. Jay was very meticulous in recording this information and it would be a pity if it were lost. Two days ago Jay explained to me that while persevering the games was very important to him it was not his primary motivation which was to record as many results from 19th century chess players as possible to provide data to create a more accurate way to rate chess players from the 1800s. He was convinced that the historical ratings for players like Staunton were much too high. It's quite possible that no titled player since Fischer spent so much time studying the old masters. This desire for data explains why there are some games with no moves here. Jay wanted to at least have the result if nothing else. There are probably around 14,000 complete games here. Jay did not keep up with Mega so there is undoubtedly some overlap with what already exists in MegaDatabase 2011. Still I am pretty sure that there is much that is new. For example Dr. Divinsky found many games by Lasa that were completely new to him. During the past two decades Jay traveled to libraries in Europe, South America and the US. He spent several months at the John G. White collection in Cleveland. Many if not most of the games come from old newspaper columns. Jay wished to have his research disseminated as widely as possible and put to use. Please feel free to pass it on or post it on your website if you wish. If you could mention that this is Jay's work it would be nice. … Thanks
John
>
Note that some of the games are stubs, hold on a sec, I can quickly get a rough estimate of the number... OK, there's 2303 games with 5 or less moves (1618 with 0 moves). . |
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Oct-29-15
 | | Tabanus: <every game heading mentioned in that index for the 1841 CPC lists him as Mr. P---t,> No, three game headings have "Mr. P." (and "Mr. P----t" in the index). But "Mr. W. P." (page 23) is not listed in the index at all. And may be Pulling. |
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Oct-29-15 | | thomastonk: <jnpope: Here is my timeline of chess-based material> Very useful. Thanks. <1846: Dies? (Is there a report from 1846?)> Yes: Hirschberg's "Deutsche Schachzeitung", Leipzig 1846, pages 233-4, see https://books.google.de/books?id=tV... (verstorben = deceased). I think von der Lasa's article 'Das Schachspiel in Hamburg und Altona' should be in that list; a snippet is shown in C.N. 7364. (Von der Lasa visited Hamburg twice, the first time in 1842; the local chess club had two players of fame, Popert and Horwitz. Von der Lasa mentioned Popert's time in England, and a game with de la Bourdonnais. Popert spent his last years(*) in Hamburg, always ill, and only Horwitz was superior to him.) ---
(*) Kennedy's text in C.N. 7368 seems to indicate that Popert was in London on the verge of his death. |
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Oct-29-15
 | | Tabanus: https://archive.org/stream/chessstu... (Walker's book): There are many "M. Popert" in it, but game no. 738 has "M. M. Popert". It may mean nothing.. |
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Oct-29-15
 | | jnpope: Just from memory here, but is that the consultation game? M. M. Popert and G. Walker vs another group? |
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Oct-29-15
 | | jnpope: On my phone and I cannot check Chess Studies until I return home. |
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Oct-29-15
 | | Tabanus: <jnpope> Yes it is. You will see the game immediately when you click on the link. |
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Oct-29-15
 | | Tabanus: <Yes: Hirschberg's "Deutsche Schachzeitung", Leipzig 1846, pages 233-4, see https://books.google.de/books?id=tV...> And on page 39 he is called "Herr Poppert" and is ill. |
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Oct-29-15 | | thomastonk: CORRECTION! I regret that I have to report a mistake: I gave two times a link to page 233 of Hirschbach's "Deutsche Schachzeitung", but the year is <1847> and not 1846. Until now I did not observe that the three volumes for 1846, 1847 and 1848 were bound together, and therefore many page numbers appear twice or more. Page 39, which was reported by <Tabanus>, belongs also to 1847. Moreover, the text doesn't state that Popert is ill; instead the text states that Poppert from Hamburg had a great fame, and that his illness ruined his playing strength from a master of first order to a knight odds player. The statements describe a situation from the past and allow no dating. Furthermore, the "Herr" before his name appears on the same page also before the names of Kieseritzky, Delaunoy, Dewinck, Calvi, Schulten, Kling, Deschappelles, Löwe and Finch; so we see that the author applied it independent of nationality. |
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Oct-29-15 | | thomastonk: Addendum: A little bit of dating is maybe possible; "vorgeben konnte" indicates in today's German that these odds could be given in the past, but cannot be given any longer. So, this probably implies that Poppert was already dead, when these lines were written. |
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