< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 4 OF 6 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Jul-02-07 | | Bridgeburner: <Gladiator>
I see what you're getting at. FIDE itself is mildly corrupt and so would probably be willing to let people like Afromeev keep on as long as they stay under FIDE's radar. Bessel Kok's challenge may have helped clean up FIDE to some extent but they won't clean up on Afromeev unless they're forced to. |
|
Jul-02-07 | | skiskichess5: A point I made earlier is that nobody seems to care. If people cared, there would be 400 pages here under Afromeev, not 4. <gladiator> I don't understand your point about circularity. If Afromeev is a 2600+ player than a 13/13 score would be plausible. BTW FWIW, its probably been posted but this is the link to the Chess Today issue with the story about his driver and his cat ... I wonder who the driver is?
http://www.chesstoday.net/issues/CT...
Do we know that this is not just an 'urban tale' |
|
Jul-02-07 | | skiskichess5: ... and I wonder if the cat did get a rating ... perhaps it is Fritz the cat. Is there anything in FIDE rules that rated players have to be human? |
|
Jul-02-07
 | | alexmagnus: The "human rule" wouldn't make much sense - it is entirely possible that some animals can play chess. |
|
Jul-02-07 | | TheGladiator: <skiskichess5>
Afromeev isn't cheating because he has a 2600+ rating (which he couldn't have without cheating, but we didn't take him cheating to get to 2600, so now he isn't cheating when he's cheating because he is 2600) and then he can score 100% against patzers all the time without cheating and increase his rating 50 points, and then he isn't cheating because he is 2650, or when he again scores 100% against patzers, and then becomes 2700, and then he isn't cheating when he scores 100% against patzers to become 2750, and so on... You must realize that this "argument" could have been applied since Afromeev "was 2450", when 100% against patzers wasn't that unlikely, so he wasn't necessarily cheating when he scored 100% to raise his rating to 2500, and so on. |
|
Jul-02-07
 | | alexmagnus: Talking about the negative effects of the "350-point-rule".... |
|
Jul-03-07 | | Karpova: FIDE should force him to play three tournaments with an average rating fitting to his Elo just like they did with Crisan.
Three tournaments are good because you have enough games and if it were just one tournament he could claim to have had a bad day. |
|
Jul-03-07 | | ForeverYoung: Reading about this individual brings back memories of reading in "Inside Chess" about some fellow who turned in false rating reports and made it to being ranked #30 in the world or so. Of course TPTB at FIDE should have this fellow investigated and tossed off the rating list if they find he turned in false rating reports or in any other way bribed his way up the rating list. |
|
Jul-03-07 | | TheGladiator: Here is an excerpt from my mail correspondence with FIDE officials: ---
<FIDE official: I have my opinion about organising a tournament where one top rated player
plays a group of low rated opponents and even some unrated opponents, but
there is nothing to prevent this in the regulations.> Like you suggest further down, there could be made changes to the rating
system. But the real point here, is that Mr Afromeev didn't reach 2600 by
playing 300 games against 2000 players like myself. No matter what his
current rating indicates, the common belief in the chess community, is
that Mr Afromeev's true level is about 2300, like his title suggests. <FIDE official: The rating increase for a top player in this kind of tournament is minimal,
as the expected result gets very high. Afromeev gained 13 rating points from
this tournament, which is not a big gain.>
Mr Afromeev played some "highly rated" 2100 opponents and some 2200
opponents in this tournament, too. A perfect score of 13 points is
theoretically unlikely (but possible - it's 1,3 points more than expected
for the tournament), but this is the result practically every time Mr
Afromeev plays his lowly rated (around 2000-2100) local opponents. Saying
that FIDE can't do anything about this, is quite serious in my view, and
several chess players and title holders share my view on this matter. But it should be well-known for FIDE, which I suppose have been aware of
the Afromeev situation for several years, that he recently played the
"Tula Regon Final Ch" (2006) and met an average of 2418. Remember that
most (every?) chess player in the world consider Mr Afromeev a 2300
player. Against an Rc of 2418 he scored 7,5/9 - which is insane for a
player at 2300-level. If FIDE's official view is that Mr Afromeev is a
true 2600+ player for which such a score is normal, then I will challenge
FIDE and Mr Afromeev to prove that, in a tournament against true and
high-profiled top 50-100 players under circumstances where nobody
would suggest anyone is dropping points. This would at least mean outside
Russia, and preferrably in western Europe.
An FM scoring 7,5 out of 9 against a 2418 average is out of this world,
and has probably not happened since Mr Kramnik (the World Champion)
skipped the IM title on his way to the GM title. I personally know many
hundred chess players, but I don't know anyone who thinks Mr Afromeev's
result in this tournament was "for real". I would consider this a serious
issue for the trustworthyness of the rating system, FIDE and its
officials.
(See this page for the mentioned tournament:
http://www.fide.com/ratings/tourarc... )
Interestingly, in this 12 man round robin, Mr Afromeev only played 9 of
his 11 opponents, but every other game seemingly was played. Didn't Mr
Maxim Novikov and Mr Oleg Selin "accept" the tournament's true
"regulations"? I'm sure the rating report had some explanation, but
probably not one I would be willing to trust.
---
After looking some more, it seems like Maxim Novikov rather is deeply involved in Afromeev's "business" - maybe he was creating the pgn of Afromeev's games? ;) Another strange thing with Afromeev's tournaments (both the ones he plays and the ones he merely "organizes"), is the abundance of extreme scores: someone is always gaining 30-80 points while others are dropping similar amounts. That one or more players are scoring 3-4 points more or less than expected is the rule, rather than the exception, and this is very weird and unusual in normal 10-14 man round robins. With Afromeev it happens all the time... |
|
Jul-03-07
 | | plang: Maybe I'm naive but I don't really understand this. Other than as a gag or a practical joke how does Afromeev benefit from this? In order to make a living at chess you need more than just a high rating; you need to be able to compete at a high level. |
|
Jul-03-07 | | Karpova: Afromeev is a business man so he doesn't need chess to make money. He needs a high rating for his ego.
Like a fourteen year old playground bully who beats up some 5 year old child. |
|
Jul-03-07 | | skiskichess5: ... A player does not cheat, has rating of circa 2350 and then legally increases the rating to 2650 by only playing weaker players, I do not have a problem with that. Some might regard it distasteful, at least eccentric, but if it is within the rules why not ... if people are not happy it is the rating system which is at fault. I have fun on yahoo with different IDs, eg with one I only play much weaker players than myself, another only stronger players ... get stuck sometimes but do it for fun. Perhaps Afromeev is doing it for a laugh (comments about driver and cat support that) if he is already wealthy. It would all be OK provide there is no cheating, ie falsifying or buying etc |
|
Jul-03-07 | | skiskichess5: Another interesting opponent of Afromeev is David Markosian. According to the FIDE card he is an IM with >2300 rating. According to his rating chart he's played a hell of a lot of rated games, but only has 10 on chessgames, most against players who also have few games (there are exceptions, eg he played Savon) |
|
Jul-03-07
 | | alexmagnus: <skiskichess> Isn't the rating formula supposed to be so that if you play weaker opponents your rating remains the same (bacause after winning some points you lose (almost) all of them by losing a game)? |
|
Jul-03-07 | | skiskichess5: He made 2641 at this recent tournament ...
10) IV Muhamedzjanov Memorial
The IV Muhamedzjanov Memorial took place in Naberezhnye Chelny (2nd largest city in the Republic of Tatarstan, Russia) 10th-18th June 2007. David Markosian of Armenia took clear first place with 7/9 a point and a half clear of the field. Official site: http://www.nabchess.narod.ru/eur_as... ---
IV Muhamedzjanov Mem Naberezhnye Chelny RUS (RUS), 11-18 vi 2007 cat. VII (2414)
---
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0
---
1. Markosian, David S m ARM 2352 * 0 1 = 1 1 1 1 1 = 7.0 2641
2. Balashov, Yuri S g RUS 2467 1 * = = = = = = 1 = 5.5 2488
3. Zubarev, Alexander1 g UKR 2511 0 = * = 1 1 = 1 = = 5.5 2483
4. Andreev, Eduard UKR g UKR 2433 = = = * 0 = = = 1 = 4.5 2412
5. Zhidkov, Valery S m UKR 2351 0 = 0 1 * = = = 1 = 4.5 2421
6. Mingachev, Mansur f RUS 2402 0 = 0 = = * = = 1 1 4.5 2415
7. Vorontsov, Nickolay m KAZ 2300 0 = = = = = * = 0 = 3.5 2346
8. Alavkin, Arseny m RUS 2493 0 = 0 = = = = * 0 1 3.5 2325
9. Akhmadeev, Vadim m RUS 2430 0 0 = 0 0 0 1 1 * 1 3.5 2332
10. Kupreichik, Viktor D g BLR 2402 = = = = = 0 = 0 0 * 3.0 2290
---
|
|
Jul-03-07 | | skiskichess5: ... it might be helpful if players submitted all their games as well as results to FIDE ... or would it? |
|
Jul-03-07 | | skiskichess5: <alexmagnus> it is bad to loose against a weaker player but if you have very strong performance against them your rating will still go up |
|
Jul-03-07 | | skiskichess5: ... I did it !!
Vladimir is temporarily at top of chessgames recent kibitzing list ... hope he buys me dinner on that if I ever go to Tula |
|
Jul-04-07 | | Tomlinsky: I remember Alexander Baburin commenting on Afromeev's antics years back so FIDE are either not interested or in on the deal. Chess Today - September 2001
"Alas, the fact that FIDE did not take a hard stance against such abuse,
has already tempted more people into inflating their ratings. For example, I recently received '64-Chess review' No.7 of 2001. There I read an interesting article by IM Igor Yagupov, who described how a local businessmen in his native Tula (city about 120 km from Moscow; GM Kotov was from there) last year decided first to get and then to raise his Elo. That guy - Mr. Vladimir Afromeev - has been so successful in his fraud, that he now has an international rating of 2520! I call it a fraud, because many know that the some of the tournaments, which he 'organised' never took place, while in some others certain players threw points at Mr. Afromeev. Now he is an FIDE Master and I bet that soon he will become Grandmaster. God, help our game! Sorry, I meant Kirsan! :-)" Full article... http://www.chesstoday.net/issues/CT... |
|
Jul-04-07 | | Mameluk: <skiskichess> Unfortunately Savon in his later years took part in some suspicious tournaments, too. |
|
Jul-04-07 | | stanleys: Another cheater:
http://fide.com/ratings/card.phtml?...
An article about him and Afromeev on
http://e3e5.com/newsitem.php?id=5059 (in Russian) |
|
Jul-04-07 | | TheGladiator: If I remember correctly, IM Igor Yagupov later participated in one (or more) of Afromeev's events - so I'm afraid that he's been eaten by the local "system". That FIDE isn't willing to take any action based on the massive circumstancial evidence (e.g. Yagupov's article from way back in 2001) is just incredible, or rather outrageous. When will Afromeev be stopped? When he becomes 2700+? Just allowing him in the top 100 is disgusting towards real, hard working GMs, where top 100 is a real milestone. Also - nothing was done on Afromeev's way to 2520. After that, he could continue gaining rating in smaller steps - or, in the FIDE official's wording: <Afromeev gained 13 rating points from this tournament, which is not a big gain> - well, not "seeing" his major fraud in the beginning, and then using the consequence of this fraud to explaining why later fraud (e.g. his recent +13 points tournament) isn't fraud, is doubtful, at minimum. I think this says it all: <many know that the some of the tournaments, which he 'organised' never took place, while in some others certain players threw points at Mr. Afromeev> IMO, FIDE in the choice between 1) launching a big investigation, 2) continuing to ignore this fraud until Afromeev is a top 20 player [in a year or two if he likes], 3) forcing him to prove his rating in 2-3 events with proper, trustworthy opposition, should choose alternative 3. It takes little time and would be very effective, if they wanted it to be. If FIDE isn't willing to do anything about this very obvious case, or if Afromeev can bribe local FIDE representatives into not taking any action, then I really, really wonder how FIDE can want us to believe that they are able and/or willing to do anything about more "usual" but harder to detect rating and title fixing, where real chess players "just" want an IM title to help their work situation in Russia or other east european countries (where an IM title still might influence what you get paid for teaching chess and similar). |
|
Jul-04-07
 | | SwitchingQuylthulg: <then I really, really wonder how FIDE can want us to believe that they are able and/or willing to do anything about more "usual" but harder to detect rating and title fixing> What makes you think FIDE really wants us to believe that? It's a nice plus if we do, of course, but since today's average chess fan finds our glorious leaders the bottom of the ketchup bottle anyway, it makes no big change. I'm afraid it will take more than your complaint if we want anything to be done about Afromeev. |
|
Jul-04-07 | | TheGladiator: <I'm afraid it will take more than your complaint if we want anything to be done about Afromeev.> You don't say... Quoting myself:
<Unfortunately, I think a number of strong GMs need to address this issue for FIDE to actually do anything about it. Tellingly, Mr Abundo probably didn't forward my mail to anyone until GM Krasenkow replied> So any suggestions on how to get this initiative to accumulate power and propagate throughout the community of chess players? |
|
Jul-04-07
 | | SwitchingQuylthulg: Not any by me... I could probably get this initiative to accumulate power and propagate throughout the community of Bricks players, but I doubt that would be useful. |
|
 |
 |
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 4 OF 6 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
|
|
|