|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 13 OF 14 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Jun-10-20 | | mahaprabhu krishna: My god! Did Greco lose any game??
Greco I think is perfect one to follow for the beginners to improve in quickest fashion |
|
| Jun-10-20 | | jith1207: <Once they got to King and 62 Queens vs. King and still couldn't win>: That's effectively a stalemate position. ;)
<Did Greco lose any game??> Greco won each game so easily that he retired from Chess and started composing Chess Games by himself. |
|
Jun-10-20
 | | Ziryab: The "duplicitous cover up" expressed in the term "Gioachino Greco vs NN" is a late twentieth century innovation that cannot be explained by the motives of anyone in the late-sixteenth or early-seventeenth century. Earlier in the twentieth century, the phrasing would have been Greco vs. Amateur. In all of Greco's manuscripts, and every publication based upon them, there are no names of players. Rather you find expressions akin to Beale's (1656): Gambett. XI
Play the last to this mark vv
B. king to his queens house
White queens bishop takes the contrary pawn
and so on
Hoffmann (1900) simply has Game I, Game II, and so on. With variations interspersed. He employs what we recognize today as English descriptive notation. Hence, B. king to his queens house would be K-Q1. White always wins in Greco's MSS. The games that you find in these collections that have Black winning were presented in Greco with Black having the first move. Naturally, our database software does not accommodate this convention. The convention of the first player always having White arose in the last half of the nineteenth century. |
|
Jun-11-20
 | | jessicafischerqueen:
Post by User: just some NN Biographer Bistro (kibitz #20879) <The Gioaccino Greco page has some wild claims in it, jutifying it with "Chess historian Sean J Manross has postulated in his study "Mastering Chess: Through the Ages" (2016)".Can someone else take a look? I can't find the referenced book, and the claims seem super unlikely.> |
|
Jun-11-20
| | jessicafischerqueen:
Post by User: User: jessicafischerqueen Biographer Bistro (kibitz #20880) <I looked at the Gioachino Greco page and the Sean J Manross page, and I also looked at the hidden edit histories on these pages, which can be accessed by cg.com editors.According to the edit history notes, both pages appear to have been written by, and last edited by, User: User: Alpinemaster . I cannot find any documentation on Google that confirms the existence of a book entitled "Mastering Chess: Through the Ages (2016)". This book, if it exists, is given as the source for a rather lurid and certainly contentious theory about <Greco> in our cg.com bio page. This theory is sorely in need of corroboration. The Google search terms "Mastering Chess: Through the Ages (2016)" reveal multiple hits on this exact phrase: <Chess historian Sean J Manross has postulated in his study "Mastering Chess: Through the Ages" (2016) that the supposedly-genius mind of Gioachino Greco ...> These Google search terms yield no actual information about a book called "Mastering Chess: Through the Ages (2016)". There is no information on city of publication or name of publishing company. I think the book could likely be a vanity publication. But the most important thing is where the contentious information comes from. In this case, I believe a bona fide primary source is absolutely required. None of this looks "ok" to me, at least in its present form. I think colleagues should take a good, long look at the <Greco> page, especially cg.com editors who have access to the edit history notes. I suspect this is one man's (unpublished) pet theory that has been promulgated on a variety of web sites, including cg.com. It's a contentious theory that requires adequate source documentation and corroboration. If that cannot be provided, I think we should consider deleting it from our <Greco> biography.> |
|
Jun-11-20
| | jessicafischerqueen:
Post by User: Paint My Dragon Biographer Bistro (kibitz #20882) <Re: Greco
The theory of sexual scandal causing games to be recorded anonymously (e.g. Greco-NN) may be one explanation, but seems fairly convoluted to me.As far as I recall, the simpler and more usual understanding was that Greco made these games up to show brilliancies and to entertain in his manuscripts. He may well have been the first brilliant 'composer' of chess. The modern day thirst for truth and accuracy in chess did not prevail back then - it was more desirable to show fabricated pyrotechnics than to present actual games of chess. But of course the masquerade of Greco-NN allowed him to do both.> |
|
Jun-11-20
| | jessicafischerqueen:
Post by User: jessicafischerqueen Biographer Bistro (kibitz #20885) <<Paint My Dragon> Your post makes a lot of sense to me. I think we should replace the more colorful segment of the extant <Greco> bio with something very like what you just posted here. I counsel a conservative approach with some actual citations, possibly from something as basic as <Hooper and Whyld>?I wonder if <Edward Winter> has weighed in on Greco. Today I will have a look over there. I think it more likely than not that there is a book called "Mastering Chess: Through the Ages (2016)", and it needn't be a vanity press project- it could simply be a book that had a limited release and was never offered for wider sale. This might account for the absence of publication details on the internet. If such publication details cannot be provided, then the book shouldn't be listed as a source. More crucially, the book's theory on <Greco> has to be substantiated with strong corroborative evidence. At present, we have no method of accessing that evidence, and until we have a chance to evaluate it, I think we should excise that portion of our bio. Citing stronger sources for the rest of what's there would be a good idea as well.> |
|
Jun-11-20
| | jessicafischerqueen:
Post by User: jessicafischerqueen Biographer Bistro (kibitz #20886) <In addition, I suspect that User: Alpinemaster , the writer of both the Sean J Manross and the Gioachino Greco bios, is likely the book's author himself- Sean J Manross. Again, it would be good if other cg editors took a close look at the editing notes/history of our Greco and Manross bios.> |
|
Jun-11-20
| | jessicafischerqueen:
Post by User: Paint My Dragon Biographer Bistro (kibitz #20887) <Yes, Hooper and Whyld say: "Although probably fictitious, the games were lively and exciting".Calvin Olson gives a little more detail on why he thinks they weren't real, in <The Chess Kings: Vol. 1, p20>. Two other texts that question whether his games were real or invented: <Chess Bits and ... Obits - CJS Purdy, p67> and <The Kings Of Chess - WR Hartston, p14> Of course, it's fair to say that a number of other authors don't make such claims and just remark on how tactically entertaining his games were.> |
|
Jun-11-20
| | jessicafischerqueen:
Post by User: just some NN Biographer Bistro (kibitz #20888) <Well of course, once you've composed a game, it's just a matter of finding some NN who will fall into your trap. At which point it becomes 'real', I guess? So I've never entirely understood that debate.
(But thanks everyone for your time!)> |
|
Jun-11-20
| | jessicafischerqueen:
Post by User: jessicafischerqueen Biographer Bistro (kibitz #20890) ===
<Here's a post by User: Alpinemaster from May 3, 2015 which mentions the Sean J Manross book:Biographer Bistro (kibitz #10603) No bibliographical details are given in his announcement about "Mastering Chess: Through the Ages." If we edit the <Greco> bio, I think it's important to involve <Annie K> in this conversation, because User: Alpinemaster is a cg.com editor, and we want to avoid an "editing war." If we change the biography, I think the admins should send an email to <Alpinemaster> advising him what we plan to change. Possibly he would like to weigh in or supply additional information, which we can then evaluate further.> |
|
Jun-11-20
| | Ziryab: Sean J. Manross offers an intriguing thesis, but he should seek to publish it in a manner that allows others to examine both its claims and its sources. Posting a summary of his unpublished book in the biography of Greco here is not the appropriate way to give his ideas a fair hearing. I, for one, would like to see some evidence that Polerio did not die as reported in 1610, but somehow was traveling incognito in France and England in his 70s, leaving behind a trail of manuscripts from which scholars such as J.A. Leon and H.J.R. Murray reconstructed elements of Greco's biography. |
|
Jun-11-20
| | jessicafischerqueen:
Post by User: jessicafischerqueen Biographer Bistro (kibitz #20891) <<Paint my Dragon> excellent.Might you post a summary of the relevant information from the <Olsen> and <Purdy> sources? I have the other two books you mentioned. Be sure to include the bibliographical information in full, as well as page numbers. This will help us properly document what other historians are saying about <Greco's> games. Or "games."> |
|
Jun-11-20
| | jessicafischerqueen:
Post by User: Paint My Dragon Biographer Bistro (kibitz #20892) <Okay, from the Purdy book (Thinker's Press, 2006) p.67:
<Greco's manuscripts purported to show his own games; but it is generally thought that the games were, in fact, modified (i.e. composed) to show brilliancies.>From the Olson book (Trafford, 2006) p.20:
<Even though Greco is known to have played some of the best players in Rome, France and England, it is questionable whether any of the games he preserved are actual games. They appear to be mostly a collection of opening traps. The short and precise nature of the games and the lack of any known opponents lead me to speculate that they were analysis invented for his publication. The work may have initially derived from actual games but the precision and economy of these traps give the appearance of having been sanitized for publication. This seems reasonable since a large proportion of Greco's income appears to have come from the sale of his manuscript to wealthy patrons and chess opponents.> -------------
Incidentally, Eales' <Chess: The History of a Game> also contains relevant material, but it is sprawled over a dozen or so pages and I haven't got the patience to sift through! If you have that book it may be worth a look.> |
|
Jun-11-20
| | jessicafischerqueen:
Post by User: Paint My Dragon Biographer Bistro (kibitz #20893) <If the Alpinemaster material is removed, then one option is to simply move it into Kibbitzing.
An Alpinemaster will be familiar with skiing off-piste!> |
|
Jun-11-20
| | jessicafischerqueen: Post by User: jessicafischerqueen Biographer Bistro (kibitz #20895) <Thank you <Paint My Dragon>!I think it's a good idea to move at least the Manross book material to the kibbutzing. I will do some work on sourcing in the next few days and then try to improve the bio after that.> |
|
Jun-11-20
| | jessicafischerqueen:
Post by User: Ziryab Biographer Bistro (kibitz #20898) <I have been following up this claim, "the key primary source, Alessandro Salvio, remains ENTIRELY NOT AWARE that some chess phenom named 'Gioachino Greco' ever existed."
Greco is mentioned on page 47 of Alessandro Salvio, Il Puttino, altramente detto: il Cavaliero errante del Salvio, sopra il gioco de scacchi con la sua Apologia contra il Carrera ... (1634).(Unfortunately, I do not read Italian.)> |
|
Jun-11-20
| | jessicafischerqueen:
Post by User: Ziryab Biographer Bistro (kibitz #20900) <Nonetheless, Google Translate gives me the gist of the passage, which appears to be a source for assertions that Giacchino Greco (Salvio's spelling) went to the Indies and died there. William Lewis incorrectly asserts that Greco died at an old age in the East Indies, but most writers assert that he died as a young man in the West Indies. As Salvio's text was published in 1634, that is the date given for the end of Greco's life. I have read that claim elsewhere. Greco may have died some years earlier.
Salvio also appears to be a source for the assertion that Greco bequeathed his money to the Jesuits (Padri Gesuiti is the name Salvio employs).> |
|
Jun-11-20
| | jessicafischerqueen:
Post by cg.com administrator User: Annie K. Biographer Bistro (kibitz #20903) <I sent an email to User: Alpinemaster asking him to visit and offer his input on Greco. Hope he gets the mail. :)> |
|
Jun-12-20
| | Ziryab: J. A. Leon's assessment of Greco's games from a biographical article published in <British Chess Magazine> 15 (March 1895). “Greco’s celebrated collection of games does not, as v. d. Lasa points out, form a text-book. It consists of a number of variations without any proper connection, and is entirely unaccompanied by notes. Very weak moves are found accompanying the most hazardous attacks, while the plain straight-forward game is frequently overlooked. Nevertheless, these games are highly instructive, and according to Ponziani’s correct judgement, are well calculated to stimulate new ideas in a young imagination. They are artistically arranged, and are, as it were, taken from life, containing as they do those very errors apt to be committed by weak, and occasionally even by the strongest players. They abound in numerous suitably selected traps and notwithstanding the absence of notes, contain many highly ingenious combinations.” (110-111) |
|
Jun-12-20
 | | MissScarlett: <Gioachino Greco, also known as Il Calabrese, was possibly born..> I'm insistent that he was definitely born. |
|
Jun-12-20
| | jessicafischerqueen:
Post by User: Ziryab (edited) Biographer Bistro (kibitz #20925) <I have my own writing (and database) projects in the works concerning Greco, which is what led me back here a few days ago.* I could help if I can guard against the errors Alpinemaster made (pushing his own work). I do hope that we hear from him. Although I find Manross's claims a little far-fetched, they intrigue me.*I now have a database that contains all 94 of Greco's games as presented in Francis Beale's 1656 text. Nine of these are in ChessBase Mega 2020 (but Beale carries three of these further). I suspect that the selection here is quite close to what is in CB Mega, and am currently cataloging the differences.> |
|
Jun-13-20
| | jessicafischerqueen:
Post by User: Lossmaster Biographer Bistro (kibitz #20941) <<Ziryab> and anyone interested in Greco and, more generally, in the first 150 years of modern chess (roughly, 1490-1640) should get a copy of the late Peter J. Monté’s book "The Classical Era of Modern Chess" (McFarland, 2014). It’s an impressive 600-page work of scholarship and an indispendable reference book. There’s an entire chapter about Greco (pp. 318-354), his life, his manuscripts and their later printed editions, his sources (like Polerio), his games, openings, problems, etc., with references to the latest literature on the subject. In the biographical section you’ll find, among other things, the Italian text and English translation of Salvio’s book passage about Greco (p. 318).
Chessgames.com editors might especially be interested in part II of Monté’s book (pp. 439-530), where all known games and opening lines of that pioneering era are presented (not as individual gamescores, but as one huge tree of line variations, with translated annotations and source references, usually at the end of each branch of the tree). I’m well aware that many of the "games" were probably composed rather than played against a real opponent, and that many are short incomplete games, but in my mind, the very first documented instance of any opening variation should deserve to be in a chess game database, if only for its historical value, at least for those earliest and least documented centuries of the modern game.I may be wrong, but the book doesn’t seem to be widely known around here. I used it once as a reference to debunk the spurious game Lucena vs Quintana, 1515 (see my 2017 comment under the game), but with little effect. Publisher’s page: https://mcfarlandbooks.com/product/... Review by the Chess History & Literature Society: https://www.kwabc.org/en/monte-pete... Edward Winter’s Chess Note: C.N. 9716 Author’s page in CG: Peter Monte > |
|
Jun-14-20
 | | Tabanus: More posts from Bistro:
Jun-13-20 Ziryab: <lossmaster> Monte's book looks terrific. Unfortunate that no one has answered Edward Winter's query. The most extensive review of the book I find in a quick search is https://www.researchgate.net/public.... While I wait for a copy to arrive, perhaps you could fill in two details that I suspect he addresses in the book. 1) Do we have a source other than Salvio for the end of Greco's life by 1634 and his bequest to the Jesuits? 2) What source, if any, establishes the approximate year of his birth? ###
Jun-14-20 Lossmaster: <1) Do we have a source other than Salvio for the end of Greco's life by 1634 and his bequest to the Jesuits?>
Here’s how Monté puts it: “Apart from the peculiarities from his manuscripts (see below), some data of his short lifetime are exclusively derived from Salvio’s report in 1634, written shortly after Greco’s alleged death.” This is the last part of Monté’s translation of Salvio’s report: “Thereupon the said Giacchino departed, accompanying a great lord to the Indies, where he died. He left all his belongings to the Jesuit Fathers as I was told by the great doctor Mr. Paulo Emilio Ferrero, the Neapolitan, who was then the physician to the Queen of France and later the Queen of Spain. Nowadays he is Protomedico in Naples on behalf of His Majesty, Philip IV.” Monté goes on: “In view of Salvio’s suspicous records on López, Leonardo and Boi, as described in previous chapters, his report on Greco needs to be compared to other sources in a close analysis, involving chess literature as well.” Concerning the specific matter of his death, Monté further says: “Greco’s death is pushed out to an advanced age by Lewis. In ‘Le Palamède’ it is added that he was a Jesuit when dying old in the East Indies. More recent literature dates his Madrid encounter to 1625(-1627) and Greco’s early death to 1630-1634, having joined a (Spanish) nobleman going to the West Indies. According to Chicco (1983), Greco’s still being alive ca. 1640, as given in the catalogue of the Cleveland Public Library, seems erroneous; however, in view of Beyer’s information it should not be excluded.” Monté here refers to a still unidentified Greco manuscript which, according to August Beyer (in a 1734 book), mentions that Greco was living in London in 1632. Elsewhere, Monté adds: “Whereas Salvio’s account can be doubted, two questionable major events, Greco’s sojourn in Paris in 1622 and his death in the Indies before 1634, might be attested to or refuted by a closer examination of the biographies of his French opponents and by a fortunate discovery of hitherto unknown manuscripts (particularly Beyer’s MS and the source for the printed French edition of 1669).” <2) What source, if any, establishes the approximate year of his birth?> Monté says “probably in or shortly before 1600” with no source given. Maybe it’s based on the fact that, in Salvio’s report, Greco is said to be a youngster (“giovane”) during events of his life occurring in the 1620’s. As Monté puts it: “Actually, all approximately dated facts of Greco’s life are exclusively provided by his manuscripts: In 1619-1620 he was in Rome, in 1621 in Nancy, in 1623 in England and in 1624-1625 in France.” His birthplace is better established. Plate 84 of the book is the title page of the “Libretto manuscript” (ca. 1620), with the mention, probably written in Greco’s own hand: “giochino greco / calabrese di la tera di celico”. Celico is a little town about 10 km from Cosenza, in Calabria. Cosenza is also mentioned in another of his manuscripts. |
|
| Sep-19-20 | | Marcelo Bruno: Theodor von Scheve, in his essay "Der Geist des Schachspiels" (1919), speculates that Greco probably died in Brazil. |
|
 |
|
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 13 OF 14 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
|
|
|
Kibitzing
