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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 26 OF 45 ·
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| Jan-31-08 | | sitzkrieg: yes he is! |
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| Jan-31-08 | | unsound: Nonsense. <square dance> is a lovely fellow, and I'm quite sure we'll see a heartfelt apology from him here soon, and not just some further torrent of verbal abuse. |
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| Jan-31-08 | | Jim Bartle: See you're living up to your nickname there, unsound. |
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| Jan-31-08 | | sitzkrieg: <Sd> never apologizes. Only way to make him apologize is <acirce> telling him so. |
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| Jan-31-08 | | hitman84: There are many like him on this site or maybe all those are just him. |
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| Jan-31-08 | | Zygote: <slomarko> <hitman> <sitzkrieg> I completely agree with all of you guys |
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| Jan-31-08 | | sitzkrieg: lets start a club! |
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Jan-31-08
 | | tpstar: First, sensors detect high levels of outright jealousy over Carlsen's success, directly leading to this totally contrived Ponomariov versus Carlsen contest which I don't believe is fair to either player. Surely we can appreciate both without belittling the other, right? But comments like "His performance in the World Cup was mediocre" don't help your cause since Ponomariov advanced to the 5th round before losing to Kamsky while Carlsen advanced to the 6th round before losing to Kamsky. I also disagree with "Carlsen's opponents today are far weaker than Ponomariov's in 2002" especially since Carlsen just tied for first at the super strong Corus 2008. Viewed in this context, I do see a perceptible amount of "hate" against Carlsen but virtually no "hate" against Ponomariov. Second, people shouldn't blame FIDE for Ponomariov's results, or lack thereof, as the same FIDE arranged the WC knockout tournament which Ponomariov won. That's what people really hated: the dubious format, where someone could ride a great run over three weeks into a WC title without backing up their fine performance in subsequent match or tournament play. Ponomariov is only 24, so he still has plenty of time to flesh out his accomplishments, although I wouldn't be surprised if winning the 2002 knockout proved to be more harmful than helpful when his career is evaluated in hindsight. Third, Kasparov was W2/D3/L0 against Ponomariov http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches... and certainly would not have been afraid to play him in a match. If you believe Ponomariov would have won their match, then you have the right to your opinion, but I suspect your devotion to Ponomariov (including his projected potential) is clouding your reason over this point. |
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| Jan-31-08 | | Jim Bartle: Sometimes players seem to have a defining moment, and Ponomariov appeared to have one when he was to play the match vs. Kasparov. I really don't know much about what happened, but of course that match never happened. I have the impression, possibly erroneous, that Ponomariov really didn't want to play. And his moment passed. Now younger players are having their "moments," and are taking full advantage. |
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| Jan-31-08 | | slomarko: <Viewed in this context, I do see a perceptible amount of "hate" against Carlsen but virtually no "hate" against Ponomariov.> so if somebody thinks that Ponomariov achieved more than Carlsen this means that he "hates" Carlsen? did i understand you well? |
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| Jan-31-08 | | square dance: what on this page thats been said by these outrageous pono fans is really worth arguing? sorry, but some of the statements dont deserve to be treated with any respect. all of pono's "great" accomplishments have come when he was 18 or older. carlsen just turned 17 a couple of months ago. people make a big deal out of pono finishing 2nd in linares when he was, i believe, 18. carlsen did the same thing at 16. carlsen, at age 17, has already won a major tournament. in fact, many people would argue that he won the premier tournament of the year. pono, now age 24, has still yet to accomplish such a feat. tell me again why i need to treat such ridiculous statements with respect. as far as the head to head records this database says that pono is +1=1 against carlsen and +2-2=4 against karjakin.(i left out blitz games, but possibly included rapid games) hardly outstanding considering the age difference. so, <zygote>, you may want to check your use of the world "terrible". as for some of my earlier comments, i dont think any of them were far fetched. people who make such ridiculous comments are, imo, typically being foolish, or although not literally "insane", definitely delusional. maybe pono was the leader of the young pack several years ago, but so what. karjakin was also the youngest to ever become a gm. does that mean he was on pace to be the greatest player ever? i just think that sort of rationale is silly. i will say that i may not have the appreciation for pono that i should, but please dont blame me. by the time i started following chess on a regular basis, corus 03 was the first super tournament i followed online, pono was already pretty much an afterthought. and i do agree that carlsen has gotten probably more hype than he deserved at times, but now he's living up to it. |
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| Jan-31-08 | | lorker: <<sd> carlsen, at age 17, has already won a major tournament. in fact, many people would argue that he won the premier tournament of the year. pono, now age 24, has still yet to accomplish such a feat.> no, he DID win the tal memorial, and he also won the knockout world championship, which, like it or not, WAS astrong tournament, and which carlsen has not been able to win yet. With karjakin, pono has lost at rapid but at classical he was +2-0 . you cant say my comments were ridiculous, in fact, the fact that my opinion was shared by several people shows they are not foolish or delusional. i think your language is certainly foolish and provocative of the argument which you are complaining about. the fact that carlsen had some good achievements at 17 isnt really such a big deal. what difference does one year of age make? carlsen has been playing in super tournaments for a few years now, whereas pono was not able to play in them when he was carlsens age. Also, at the age of 16/17 he tied for first in the European Championship, which is quite a strong result i would say. he also won many gold medals for his performances at the various team events, where he WAS competing against top players. i would not say he only had a short peiod of greatness, but rather that until he won the world championship his play was very strong and constantly improving. winning that seems to have weakened him quite a lot, for quite a few reasons i am sure. i dont say that ponomariov is the greatest player right now. i think he is a great player though, and to call him an afterthought or some nonsense like that is ridiculous. give him credit for his talent and for his strength. |
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| Jan-31-08 | | Fincher: <Zygote: and his performance and positional games, and the endgame far outstrips anything that Carlsen could ever produce...>he he he...dream on! |
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| Jan-31-08 | | lorker: <fincher> No i think a lot of people would agree on that |
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| Jan-31-08 | | square dance: the tal memorial is far from being the premier chess event of the year. especially the year leko, pono and aronian finished 1st. the fide ko events dont seem to be as prestigious as a top event like corus. for starters, you wouldnt have some of the top players participating. even then, you have mini-matches with fast tie breaks. in corus you get 11 top notch players, the corus B winner and van wely, who is no slouch himself, but is usually super gm fodder, and they all play each other. <you cant say my comments were ridiculous, in fact, the fact that my opinion was shared by several people shows they are not foolish or delusional.> this is the kind of crap im talking about. first of all, "several" seems to be you and a two other people. secondly, just because two or three other people share in this delusion with you doesnt mean its not a delusion. i could probably get <kamikazeattack> to agree with me that kramnik is the strongest player ever, but what does that prove? <the fact that carlsen had some good achievements at 17 isnt really such a big deal.> yes, ive realized by now that you super pono fans feel this way. carlsen's accomplishments dont mean much, but pono's accomplishments prove that he was on pace to be the greatest ever. carlsen is just all hype, i guess. <carlsen has been playing in super tournaments for a few years now, whereas pono was not able to play in them when he was carlsens age.> no, not true. carlsen's first super tournament was corus 2007. again, you people need to get your facts straight. <i think he is a great player though, and to call him an afterthought or some nonsense like that is ridiculous.> no, its not. he was already at least becoming an afterthought by the time i started following chess. it doesnt mean that he's not strong, or whatever and it doesnt take away, or change his results. lets just sum this up: carlsen has won already won a super tournament at age 17. pono, at age 24 now, has yet to win a super tournament despite playing in several. maybe im the one who's got it all wrong here. could be. but i just dont see where the proof is that pono is "more talented" than carlsen. sorry, but everything i see says its the other way around. |
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| Jan-31-08 | | slomarko: <the fide ko events dont seem to be as prestigious as a top event like corus. for starters, you wouldnt have some of the top players participating. even then, you have mini-matches with fast tie breaks. in corus you get 11 top notch players, the corus B winner and van wely, who is no slouch himself, but is usually super gm fodder, and they all play each other.> yeah right. winning an exhibition tourney like Corus mainly thanks to wins against people like Van Wely, Eljanov and Mamediarov is a greater achievement than becoming an official FIDE world champion by beating in matches Bareev, Morozevich, Svidler and Ivanchuk (8 games match lets not forget it). whatever. |
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| Jan-31-08 | | square dance: solid argument, slo. of course i figured you would respond since i mentioned both carlsen and van wely. im sure you think pono's win was the greatest accomplishment in chess history since he knocked out moro on his way to victory. |
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| Jan-31-08 | | slomarko: <no, not true. carlsen's first super tournament was corus 2007.> no it was not. Carlsen's first super tourney was Tal Memorial 2006. |
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| Jan-31-08 | | square dance: what is your definition of a super tournament? |
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| Jan-31-08 | | slomarko: a category 20 tourney with an avarage rating of 2727 most certainly is a super tourney. |
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| Jan-31-08 | | lorker: <square dance> you need to get some facts straight too. carlsen played in the Tal memorial of 2006 which WAS a supertournament and had an extremely high average rating, about the same as corus which carlsen won. <<you cant say my comments were ridiculous, in fact, the fact that my opinion was shared by several people shows they are not foolish or delusional.> this is the kind of crap im talking about.> I think you need to get some facts more straight. First its more than two, and several means a few, of which two more people would fit the description.
<lets just sum this up: carlsen has won already won a super tournament at age 17. pono, at age 24 now, has yet to win a super tournament despite playing in several. > You just refuse to listen to what i tell you so theres no use in arguing with you.
<<the fact that carlsen had some good achievements at 17 isnt really such a big deal.> yes, ive realized by now that you super pono fans feel this way. carlsen's accomplishments dont mean much, but pono's accomplishments prove that he was on pace to be the greatest ever. carlsen is just all hype, i guess.
> now if you call what i say carp, this is just as crappy. I never said carlsen was weak, but accepted that he IS strong and has had great results. furthermore i never said that pono is the greatest ever, but rather that he might have had the talent to do it.
<the fide ko events dont seem to be as prestigious as a top event like corus. for starters, you wouldnt have some of the top players participating. even then, you have mini-matches with fast tie breaks. in corus you get 11 top notch players, the corus B winner and van wely, who is no slouch himself, but is usually super gm fodder, and they all play each other.> as slomarko pointed out, carlsens win at corus was largely based on beating players like Van Wely. Furthermore, if these knockout tournaments are so weak, why hasnt Carlsen been able to win one?
< im sure you think pono's win was the greatest accomplishment in chess history since he knocked out moro on his way to victory.> this kind of sarcastic comment is the sort of thing which would make you call someone else insane. |
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| Jan-31-08 | | slomarko: just for comparision:
Tal Memorial 2006 cat.20 ava.2727
Corus 2007 cat.19 ava.2717
Corus 2006 cat.19 ava.2715
Corus 2005 cat.20 ava.2720
Corus 2004 cat.19 ava.2702
Corus 2003 cat.18 ava.2700
i hope you it is clear why Tal Memorial 2006 was a super tourney. |
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| Jan-31-08 | | sitzkrieg: 1-0 for slo against Square Dance |
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| Jan-31-08 | | square dance: if we consider tal 2006 a super tournament, then that doesnt change the fact that carlsen hasnt been playing in super tournaments for years as tal 2006 was just a couple of months before corus 2007. <I think you need to get some facts more straight. First its more than two, and several means a few, of which two more people would fit the description.> hmm, seems like its you, zygote and dx. am i missing someone? <as slomarko pointed out, carlsens win at corus was largely based on beating players like Van Wely.> yes, weakies like van wely and kramnik. <Furthermore, if these knockout tournaments are so weak, why hasnt Carlsen been able to win one?> who said they were weak? thats called a strawman. you set up an argument as if its mine and then tear it down to "prove me wrong". all i said is that the fide ko events arent as prestigious as the corus chess tournament, largly because of the format. then we have your question at the end. its as if your whole argument is based around the fact that pono won a world cup(then world championship) and carlsen hasnt, so therefore pono is greater than carlsen. carlsen is a full seven years younger than pono and already has at least an equal resume, if not better. and carlsen is accomplishing these things a year or two before pono had his very brief run of success. <this kind of sarcastic comment is the sort of thing which would make you call someone else insane.> this statement is such gibberish that i dont even know how to interpret it. |
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| Jan-31-08 | | square dance: its so cute when two trolls team up against me. and, of course slo takes the statement out of context. what i was objecting to when i said<no, not true. carlsen's first super tournament was corus 2007.> was that carlsen had been playing in super tournaments for years now. read here:<<carlsen has been playing in super tournaments for a few years now, whereas pono was not able to play in them when he was carlsens age.> no, not true. carlsen's first super tournament was corus 2007. again, you people need to get your facts straight.> to me i just think that a tournament where peter leko is the best player is not a super tournament. at least not on the same level as a corus, linares, or the first two Mtel's. not to mention that tal 2006 had morozevich and he's a well known punching bag for real super GMs. |
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