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Jun-10-08 | | SetNoEscapeOn: And <squaredance>, I do believe that the argmageddon game is fundamentally flawed. One side is bound to have an advantage, and which side does probably is not static over different pairs of players. However, any other normal game, 10/seconds move included, does nothing to address the "white pieces" advantage in a game, so it seems that with that (or increment, or time delay) you would still need at least two games. |
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Jun-10-08 | | Petrosianic: <However, any other normal game, 10/seconds move included, does nothing to address the "white pieces" advantage in a game,> I would be willing to forget about that, if we could have an otherwise reasonable format. It wouldn't be any worse than football where you can lose in overtime without ever touching the ball. But if we absolutely have to play Blitz games, it wouldn't hurt to play them with an increment, and in groups of 2 games. |
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Jun-10-08 | | SetNoEscapeOn: <It wouldn't be any worse than football where you can lose in overtime without ever touching the ball.> I assume you mean American Football- I thought they had changed that to the pairs of each offense starting at the 15 yard line? |
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Jun-10-08
 | | WannaBe: <SetNoEscapeOn> That's only in college, in NFL, it's still first to score... |
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Jun-10-08 | | Vollmer: I think 10 min + 7 sec/move is a fine alternative to 10 sec/move . Play an even number of games until one player is ahead . |
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Jun-10-08 | | centercounter: <Petrosianic: There is a certain rationale in having <A> tiebreaker. The Champion is supposed to be have the right to say that they're the best in the country. But neither one can say that if the other one has half their title.> And, assuming both players have exactly the same result at the conclusion of the event, what right does one player have to claim to be the "best in country" based on some subsequent event, be it tiebreakers, blitz games, or extra innings? Any "mini-competition" after the event, series, etc. is statistically irrelevant in determining superiority. Except, of course, for pistols at 20 paces... |
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Jun-10-08 | | Petrosianic: <And, assuming both players have exactly the same result at the conclusion of the event, what right does one player have to claim to be the "best in country" based on some subsequent event, be it tiebreakers, blitz games, or extra innings?> I don't understand. If in one "event" the players turn out equal, and in the next "event", one beats out the other, why should the first one count and the second one not? If you and I play a match for bragging rights, and we end up tied, then the match has failed to put one of us over the other. So we have another "match", a tiebreaker, to try to accomplish what the first one didn't. You win that match. So why shouldn't that count? <Any "mini-competition" after the event, series, etc. is statistically irrelevant in determining superiority.> Heck, by that thinking, the main match is irrelevant too. Botvinnik proved that it was possible to lose a match by 3 or 4 points and then come back and beat the same guy a year later. With most world championship matches, you could credibly argue that the loser might have won if the match were played over again. But this isn't a laboratory experiment to scientifically determine beyond any doubt who the better player is. It's a contest, which is almost the exact opposite. In any contest worth the name, both players have a legitimate shot of winning. |
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Jun-10-08 | | dumbgai: I completely agree with <Petrosianic's> statements above. Individual matches and tournaments don't determine who is the overall greater competitor; long-term performances over the span of a career determine that. Individual matches and tournaments prove who competed better in that particular event. Now to add some additional comments: I'm not a big fan of the armageddon system, personally I'd rather see them pairs of blitz games (with increment) until a winner is decided. However, some people need to realize that whining until you get what you want usually doesn't work and generally tarnishes your image. Irina's knocking the piece off the table in frustration is entirely understandable and permissible (in my opinion) given the circumstances. However, writing that letter in which she accuses Anna of intentionally cheating is just stupid, especially considering she gave it a full week's thought. |
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Jun-10-08 | | SetNoEscapeOn: <dumbgai>
Thank you for articulating your thoughts on the matter, are very similar to my own. There was really nothing wrong with slapping the king. I would only say that rather than her letter being stupid, her arguments within in it are without merit. <Petrosianic: With most world championship matches, you could credibly argue that the loser might have won if the match were played over again. But this isn't a laboratory experiment to scientifically determine beyond any doubt who the better player is. It's a contest, which is almost the exact opposite. In any contest worth the name, both players have a legitimate shot of winning.> <centercounter>
This is in my mind to the key to matter- we need to get rid of thinking of events as needing to "prove" something rather than just be fair and produce a result. We can take a page from the world of sports, for instance the NFL- most people would say that the Patriots are better than the Giants, but that the important thing is that the Giants won the super bowl. If the game had gone into overtime and the Patriot's had scored first (thanks <WannaBe> for reminding me of this), nobody would have argued that the Giants and Patriots should be declared co-champions. |
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Jun-10-08 | | diabloprancer: <The real tragedy here is that the Women's World Champion was decided by an Armageddon game.> *US Women's Champion.*
My bad. |
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Jun-10-08 | | Jim Bartle: "My bad."
Just in time. I was about to slap your mouse to the ground. |
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Jun-11-08 | | utssb: Krush posted a final response: http://main.uschess.org/content/vie... I think it's accurate. A much more logical statement than the nonsense Braunlich put up. |
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Jun-11-08 | | Petrosianic: Krush is right in ways you can't explain, Braunlich is wrong in ways you can't explain. Not a very ringing endorsement. It would be different if Krush's letter pointed out how Braunlich was wrong, without further comment from you needed, but she doesn't. In fact, just the reverse, she seems to concede that Braunlich is right, and bases her case on an appeal to sportsmanship that obviously falls short. She knew very well before playing the game that a player might win without having demonstrated any <chess> superiority, yet played the game anyway, without complaint. It's obviously unsporting to play under bad rules, and if you like the result, fine, but if you don't, demand it be overturned because the rules were bad. That's not fair or sporting. Or legal either. On the other hand, the idea of challenging Zatonskih to a match, a REAL match, with decent rules, rather than some blitz nonsense, is a good one. I'd look forward to seeing it. |
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Jun-11-08 | | Jim Bartle: In her last letter Krush writes the following:
"In my opinion, everyone should give more weight to "what is right?" than to "what does the rule say?" " Frankly I think it's reasonable to agree or disagree with her on this point, but it does sum up the conflict pretty well. |
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Jun-11-08 | | Riverbeast: What Krush neglects to consider is that 'pre-moving' is not always to the advantage of the 'pre-mover'....It only seems that way to Krush because she lost a large time advantage and lost the title in an excruciating fashion. Touching a piece before an opponent finishes moving can also backfire (as I've learned in several internet games!) The 'pre-mover' may anticipate a move that in fact doesn't come...and their prepared response can end up being a blunder. The rules for blitz have always been that you have to let the opponent hit the clock - that's it. Krush, with her "eighteen years playing experience", should have come across this dispute at least once (unless she never plays blitz!) And sorry Ms. Krush, but it's hardly equivalent to putting your hand in your pocket and putting a piece on the board. |
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Jun-11-08 | | dumbgai: <I fail to comprehend why Anna didn’t bother to show me the same basic courtesy and respect that I showed her, when I wrote to her. I fail to comprehend why, if she disagreed with my assertions over what happened and what could be done to make it right, she made no effort to let me know what her objections were. I fail to comprehend why she has chosen silence over honest discussion, and I fail to comprehend why the one person who was in the position to resolve this fairly and amicably chose not to do so.> What respect is she talking about? She flatly accused her opponent of deliberately cheating, something I'm not convinced of from watching the video several times. After reading this last letter I have to say I've lost all respect for Irina Krush. She simply doesn't know how to shut up and stop crying like a baby. What does she expect Anna Zatonskih to do, cheerfully hand her own title to someone else? I guess she can't comprehend that some people are smart enough to simply ignore annoying crybabies. Her appeal to morals and common sense and all that is simply stupid: "I should be the champion because moral standards and common sense would say I deserve it." You must be kidding me. Even if Anna agreed to the match and Irina won, Zatonskih would still be the 2008 US Women's Champion. Krush would simply be the winner of some other match. |
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Jun-11-08 | | dumbgai: Oh and of course Irina again conveniently fails to mention that she herself also "cheated" when she punched a clock after knocking over a piece without replacing it. It's two weeks after the event happened; get over it and come back stronger next year. I think Irina Krush is only 25 years old and she has a lot of good chess ahead of her. If she complains any more about this, I'm not sure the organizers of Corus and other tournaments will want to invite her again. |
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Jun-12-08 | | clampolo: I hope Krush writes another letter. Her whining is hilarious. First she says it's cheating. Then after it is ruled legal, she writes about how the rule book shouldn't be followed. She's a joke and a sore loser. |
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Jun-12-08 | | RookFile: <Riverbeast: What Krush neglects to consider is that 'pre-moving' is not always to the advantage of the 'pre-mover'....It only seems that way to Krush because she lost a large time advantage and lost the title in an excruciating fashion.
Touching a piece before an opponent finishes moving can also backfire (as I've learned in several internet games!) The 'pre-mover' may anticipate a move that in fact doesn't come...and their prepared response can end up being a blunder. > Absolutely. On the icc, I get reasonable results in bullet with 1. d4 g6 2. Bh6 ?!, anticipating 2.... Bg7. I made this same point - Krush could have played it like Dlugy did against Kamsky, and deliberately make the 'wrong' move - counting on her opponent to move instantly, with only 2 seconds on her clock. In essence, Krush treated a blitz game of chess like it was a normal, 40/2 game, which doesn't make a lot of sense. She could have hung her queen with two seconds left and probably won the game, due to the surprise it would cause her opponent. |
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Jun-12-08 | | humangraymatter: <RookFile: <Riverbeast: What Krush neglects to consider is that 'pre-moving' is not always to the advantage of the 'pre-mover' >
What Krush is complaining about is not the pre-move in the sense of moving a piece before you see your opponents move.She complains about early clock push. |
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Jun-12-08 | | SetNoEscapeOn: <clampolo>
Krush is definitely not a joke, but what you mentioned does indeed capture the crux of the matter. Her statement <n my opinion, everyone should give more weight to "what is right?" than to "what does the rule say?"> represents a gross error in understanding, and the consequences of adhering to such an idealistic principle would put all forms of competition in jeapordy. Irina needs to understand that it is the other way around; you always follow the rules, and should certainly try to make sure that the rules reflect "what is right", but you never, ever dismiss the rules based on a subjective "moral" judgement. That, combined with her continued avoidance of the aspects of the controversy that are unflattering to herself (What about the knocked over rook? What about the fact that she never lodged a protest?) makes me glad that her latest letter will indeed be the last. Irina, you are a great player, you can be as inspiring as Maurice Ashley to many chess players in the US. This championship will be but a footnote to your career- if you don't insist on making it more than that. |
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Jun-12-08 | | SetNoEscapeOn: <She knew very well before playing the game that a player might win without having demonstrated any <chess> superiority, yet played the game anyway, without complaint> Yes, and a quick word on demonstrating "superiority". What about the 9 classical games and 4 other tiebreak games? It seems to me that she had ample opportunity to demonstrate her superiority, but came up short. Actually the only reason there was a playoff in the first place was because Krush's opponent in the final round somehow failed to win the game a piece up. If "chess superiority" is to be discussed, then we need to look at the entire competition, not just the last 25 seconds of the final game. |
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Jun-12-08 | | SetNoEscapeOn: <humangraymatter>
<What Krush is complaining about is not the pre-move in the sense of moving a piece before you see your opponents move.She complains about early clock push.> If you are allowed to move the piece, then how can the clock push be early? Is she saying that Anna pushed the clock too quickly after making her move? |
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Jun-12-08 | | RookFile: I think SetNoEscapeOn asked the right question. I do see this as a 'pre-move' issue. Remember, the rules of 'touch-move' still apply. This is what Dlugy did to Kamsky. He would check with his queen, Kamsky would instantly move his king. Check with the queen, instant king move. Then: a 'wrong' move with the queen - Kamsky touches his king. Guess what - that's bad news because Kamsky's queen went bye bye next move. As the champ says in "The Cincinatti Kid":
<Gets down to what it's all about - making the 'wrong' move at the right time.> |
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Jun-12-08 | | Petrosianic: <Even if Anna agreed to the match and Irina won, Zatonskih would still be the 2008 US Women's Champion. Krush would simply be the winner of some other match.> I agree with everything you said except for that last bit. It's perfectly legitimate for Anna to risk her title in a match if she chooses to, and if she loses, the title would pass to Irina. Anna is not OBLIGATED to give her a title shot, granted, but if Irina comes up with a decent purse, she might be enticed into doing it anyway. That's entirely her affair. |
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