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FSR
Member since Aug-27-05 · Last seen Jan-21-26
I am Frederick Rhine. The United States Chess Federation awarded me the titles of National Master (at OTB chess) in 1983, and Senior Master of Correspondence Chess in 1997. In 2025, the ICCF awarded me the International Correspondence Chess Master (correspondence IM) title.

As of November 2025, I am the second highest rated USCF correspondence chess player, just three rating points behind Gordon Magat. https://www.uschess.org/assets/top_... It was two points the month before.

The August 2020 issue of Chess Life magazine had a profile of me (for the text, see Frederick Rhine (my August 1, 2020 comment in the forum)).

I played in the 1997 USCF Absolute Championship (open to the top 13 correspondence players who accept their invitations), scoring 6-6 (+2 =8 -2). The late Alex Dunne wrote in his book on the Absolute Championships, "This was Rhine's only Absolute and he held his own against the best. His two losses were against previous Absolute winners." http://bit.ly/1NB55YP That book contains my games F Rhine vs R Lifson, 1997 and F Rhine vs D Burris, 1997.

But the 1997 event was not my only Absolute. I have also played in the 2023-25 events. In the 2023 edition, I drew all 12 games. That was enough to tie for second! Unlike the 1997 event, this one was under ICCF auspices and allowed the use of engines. There was only one decisive game! https://www.iccf.com/event?id=101114 In the 2024 Absolute, I have 10 draws and a win(!), with just one game left, which will very likely be drawn. https://www.iccf.com/event?id=105325 This time +1 will probably only be enough to tie for fourth. In the 2025 Absolute, I again drew all 12 games.

I have played first board for the Rogue Squadron in the Chicago Industrial Chess League. I have played online for the Shropshire & Friends team in the 4 Nations Chess League (4NCL), and the Oswestry team in the Shropshire League.

I attended Lane Technical High School in Chicago with the late Chessgames.com co-founder Alberto A Artidiello until he moved out of Chicago. Lane's chess team won the Illinois state championship my junior and senior years, becoming the first school ever to win consecutive championships. Albert also became a master, as did my teammates Kenneth Mohr and Christopher Kus. The late FIDE Masters Albert Charles Chow and Morris Giles were also Laneites.

In July 2013, I played in my second and third regular-rated tournaments of the millennium(!), the Greater Midwest Classic and the Chicago Class (under-2200 section). I tied for second, undefeated, in both, winning $700 and $550, respectively, and brought my rating back over 2200. http://www.uschess.org/assets/msa_j... http://www.uschess.org/assets/msa_j...

I have contributed to hundreds of chess-related articles on Wikipedia under the handle Krakatoa, notably "First-move advantage in chess," http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-... "George H. D. Gossip," http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George... and "Swindle (chess)," http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_..., all of which are almost entirely written by me. The first two of those have been Today's Featured Article, the highest honor a Wikipedia article can receive, one attained by about one out of every 1,400 articles. I have received various Wikipedia awards, including the Imperial Triple Crown Jewels and the Timeless Imperial Triple Crown (which only 12 Wikipedians have received). My user page is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:K.... Al Lawrence in the aforementioned Chess Life article referred to my "erudite chess articles on Wikipedia." Chess historian Edward Winter in his article "Wikipedia and Chess" commended my Wikipedia articles on Gossip and Hugh Edward Myers. (The latter article is at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_....) https://www.chesshistory.com/winter...

I am the editor and proofreader of the book "Tournament Battle Plan: Optimize Your Chess Results!" by Daniel Gormally. I was the proofreader of the book "Triple Exclam!!! The Life and Games of Emory Tate, Chess Warrior" by Daaim Shabazz.

I was a contributor to the now-defunct Chicago Chess Blog, http://chicagochess.blogspot.com. I discovered, and documented in my blog post https://chicagochess.blogspot.com/2..., what Taylor Kingston calls "the Mortimer Effect," which has lowered the Morphy Numbers of many modern players (maybe you!). https://chesscafe.com/the-skittles-... I have a Morphy Number of 4 by virtue of L Barden vs F Rhine, 2010 as well as two simul games I lost to Arthur Bisguier when I was in high school.

Seven hundred and fifty-one of my games are in chessgames.com's database. My favorites are F Rhine vs D Sprenkle, 1981, K Thompson vs F Rhine, 1992, and F Rhine vs A Boerkoel, 1996, each of which has been Game of the Day. Rhine-Sprenkle was published with my annotations in Chess Informant (Volume 32) and cited in the Encyclopedia of Chess Openings (Vol. B (2nd ed.) at 183 n.19). In Volume 33 of Chess Informant, my 18th move (18.Nxd6!) in that game was voted the 8th-9th most important theoretical novelty in Volume 32. The game was also cited in MCO-13 and "The Aggressive Nimzowitsch Sicilian 2...Nf6" by Eric Schiller, and occupies an entire chapter in all three editions of "Beating the Sicilian" by John Nunn. It is game 218 in "1000 TN!! The Best Theoretical Novelties" (Chess Informant, 2012). Anish Giri, in his 2023 Chessable course "Lifetime Repertoires: Giri's 1. e4 - Part 3" recommends this line for White. https://www.chessable.com/lifetime-... Following my game against Sprenkle, he writes after 22.Be3, "The computer evaluates this as completely hopeless for Black and it is. Our king is in fact much safer, thanks to our much better pieces." https://www.chessable.com/learn/159... More than 40 years after I played the game, my line still kicks ass!


click for larger view

Thompson-Rhine was published with my annotations in Chess Informant (Volume 57), and cited in the Encyclopedia of Chess Openings (Vol. B (3rd ed.) at 172 n.163). Jeremy Silman discusses the game and my analysis of it in his book "Winning with the Sicilian Defence" (2nd ed.).

Probably the best game I have ever played is the astonishing F Rhine vs B Lemke, 2025, but it's too deep for me to understand. It was an ICCF game and I was greatly assisted by Stockfish 17.1 (which is legal on ICCF). I doubt that any unaided human could have played that game.

Joel Johnson in his book "Attacking 101: Volume #005" says of my blitz game F Rhine vs NN, 2019, "White played a flawless Smith-Morra Gambit that IM Marc Esserman would have been proud of." Georges Koltanowski published F Rhine vs A Artidiello, 1974 in his syndicated newspaper column. Richard Palliser discusses the opening of F Rhine vs S Nagle, 1997 in his book "tango!"

I have played some theoretically significant correspondence games in the Damiano Variation of Petroff's Defense (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 Nxe4!?), demonstrating that Black's third move, commonly regarded as a blunder, is fully playable. https://www.chessgames.com/perl/che... Nikolaos Ntirlis analyzes two of my games in an article on the variation in Volume 158 of Chess Informant. Cyrus Lakdawala and Carsten Hansen include five of my games in their book on the line, "None Shall Pass: The Unbeatable Damiano Petroff: A tricky and surprisingly solid defense."

Jacob Aagaard analyzes the endings of two of my Internet blitz games in his 896-page tome "A Matter of Endgame Technique" (alas, mine was lacking). Cyrus Lakdawala includes my study-like win in F Rhine vs A Zhao, 2019 in his book "Tactical Training in the Endgame." He also mentions me, albeit not by name, in his book "In the Zone: The Greatest Winning Streaks in Chess History" when he refers to "The Classical Sicilian, which as one of my atheist students told me, is the closest thing he has to a religion." Cyrus analyzes my game against Gadir Guseinov in his book "The Makogonov Variation: A ruthless King's Indian killer."

Commentator Mato Jelic somewhat extravagantly calls my game E Sollano vs F Rhine, 1977 "The Greatest Ever Blitz Game Played in Chicago." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wl8... See also Suren's analysis at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWa... My 7...Bxc5!! in that game, played the year before Boris Avrukh was born, is a big improvement on the flaccid 7...Bg6, his recommendation in the book "Beating 1.d4 Sidelines" (2012). I created a White counterpart to that game in F Rhine vs NN, 2025.

Someone also made a video (moves only) of J Aagaard vs F Rhine, 2021, a 2-1 bullet game where I drew and should've beaten the grandmaster - if only I'd had time! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-O... Someone else (or perhaps two different people) did a video (moves only) of Tal vs F Rhine, 1988, my loss to the great Mikhail Tal in a simul. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfk... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3o... The latter refers to me as a "great grandmaster!" which isn't quite accurate . . .

User: JimmyVermeer discusses my games NN vs F Rhine, 2021, P Pantelidakis vs F Rhine, 1974, and P Napetschnig vs F Rhine, 1977 in his video "The 109 fastest checkmates in chess history, part 10 of 11." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GT... The sequel "The 109 fastest checkmates in chess history, part 11 of 11," contains a Fool's Mate I played, which I had mentioned in a comment on this site. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0Z... Napetschnig-Rhine is also mentioned in https://www.chess.com/terms/fools-m.... Rick Kennedy discusses my game F Rhine vs NN, 2018 on his Jerome Gambit blog. https://jeromegambit.blogspot.com/2... My game F Rhine vs NN, 2010 is mentioned in the "Checkmate Patterns Course" by Raf Mesotten and John Bartholomew on chessable.com.

I composed this study, which Pal Benko published in "Benko's Bafflers" in Chess Life, May 2006:

White to play and draw


click for larger view

The solution is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stale... It is based on an earlier study of mine, also published in Benko's column. Both compositions also appear in Harold van der Heijden's endgame study database. https://www.chess.com/news/view/76-... The above study is also cited in "The Complete Chess Swindler" by David Smerdon and "Rewire Your Chess Brain: Endgame Studies and Mating Problems to Enhance Your Tactical Ability" by Cyrus Lakdawala.

I was once one of the world's best players at suicide chess (also known as "losing chess"), a chess variant where one wins by giving away all of one's pieces. http://perpetualcheck.com/antichess...

I have successfully submitted 244 puns for Game of the Day. Game Collection: Puns I submitted. User: johnlspouge has remarked, "As far as I can tell, <FSR> is churning out 'actual puns' almost as fast as I can [insert bodily function of choice]." K Tjolsen vs S Marder, 2010. Torre vs R Smirka, 1924 was Game of the Day on December 24, 2025, using the pun "Run Run Rudolph," which I had submitted on December 16, 2011. It holds the record for the longest known time between pun submission and use as GOTD - 14 years and 8 days!

The coveted 2013 Caissar for Best (Worst) Pun went to "Control-Ault-Delete," the pun I submitted for Fischer vs R Ault, 1959, the Game of the Day on December 19, 2012. I won the 2019 Caissar in the same category for my greatest pun ever (and IMO one of the greatest chessgames puns ever) "Late December Back in '63: What a Lady, What a Knight!," N Littlewood vs B Brinck-Claussen, 1963, the Game of the Day on December 30, 2019. Since Caissars are awarded in January, my wins may illustrate recency bias.

Nine of my games have been Game of the Day: NN vs F Rhine, 1977 ("Strangers on a Train"), F Rhine vs F Lasch, 1986 ("Lasch Call"), K Thompson vs F Rhine, 1992 ("Like a Rhinestone Cowboy"), R Delaune vs F Rhine, 1997 ("Red Red Rhine"), F Rhine vs D Burris, 1997 ("Fred Rhine Felled"), F Felecan vs F Rhine, 2019 ("Felecan Brief"), F Rhine vs D Sprenkle, 1981 ("Sparkling Rhine"), F Rhine vs A Boerkoel, 1996 ("Das Rhinegold"), and F Rhine vs NN, 2018 ("'Twas the Night Before Christmas"). Six wins, a draw, and two losses.

I am responsible for World Junior Championship (1957), Vidmar Memorial (1969), Carlsen - Anand World Championship Match (2014), Game Collection: Drawing lines, and 32nd Correspondence World Championship (2020), among others. Legendary chess journalist Leonard Barden recently told me in an email, "I follow your many thoughtful contributions to chessgames.com with interest."

I am a member of the ChessBookie Hall of Fame, having finished fourth in the Summer 2015 Leg, seventh in the Winter 2016 Championship Leg, ninth in the Winter 2017 Championship Leg, ninth in the Spring 2017 Leg, and seventh in the Summer 2017 Leg.

I am very active on Chessable, where my handle is "Krakatoa." https://www.chessable.com/profile/K... I am a "Legend" and have 134 badges, six shy of the world record held by Maestro. https://www.chessable.com/badges/Ma...

>> Click here to see FSR's game collections.

Chessgames.com Full Member

   FSR has kibitzed 31674 times to chessgames   [more...]
   Jan-21-26 Chessgames - Politics
 
FSR: You cannot make this crap up. The moron known as Congressman Earl L. "Buddy" Carter has introduced a bill to rename Greenland "Red, White, and Blueland." Really. Here it is: https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th...
 
   Jan-19-26 FSR chessforum
 
FSR: Submitted: [Event "WSTT/2/24/F"] [Site "ICCF"] [EventType "correspondence thematic tournament"] [Date "2025.10.10"] [Round "-"] [White "Ackermann, Emil"] [Black "Rhine, Frederick"] [ECO "D44"] [Result "1/2-1/2"] [WhiteElo "2433"] [BlackElo "2364"] [Source
 
   Jan-18-26 Reshevsky vs H Bogart, 1956
 
FSR: <andrea volponi> Yes, Napolitano should have won the game, and hence the championship. See my comment to C Purdy vs M Napolitano, 1950 .
 
   Jan-18-26 C Purdy vs M Napolitano, 1950 (replies)
 
FSR: Stockfish 17.1 gives 31... hxg2 32.Qd1 Nf3+ 33.Kxg2 Qg4+ 34.Kf1 Nxh2+ 35.Ke1 Nf3+ 36.Kf1 Qh3+ 37.Ke2 Ne5-+ (-2.96, depth 30/86). This game decided the world championship, since Purdy edged out Napolitano and Malmgren by just half a point. https://kszgk.com/iccf/?page_id=566
 
   Jan-18-26 Eric Moskow
 
FSR: As predicted, E Moskow vs F Rhine, 2026 was also drawn.
 
   Jan-18-26 A Erigaisi vs Praggnanandhaa, 2026 (replies)
 
FSR: Great pun!
 
   Jan-15-26 E Moskow vs F Rhine, 2025
 
FSR: The opening is, by transposition, the main line of the Gruenfeld Defense, Exchange Variation (D85), typically reached by the move order 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5.e4 Nxc3 6.bxc3 Bg7 7.Nf3 c5 8.Rb1. Correction slip submitted.
 
   Jan-15-26 F Rhine vs A Gaujens, 2023
 
FSR: This was a frustrating game against a correspondence GM, the first I had ever played. Stockfish said I was killing him, and still says that in the final position, where I am about to be an exchange and a pawn up. But engines don't understand blockades. See also NN vs F Rhine, 2023 . The
 
   Jan-14-26 J Puccini vs J P Gomez, 2015 (replies)
 
FSR: These days Black often prefers to try to hunt down the bishop with 7...b5 8.Bb3 Na5. See my games https://www.chessgames.com/perl/che...
 
   Jan-12-26 F Rhine vs O Thau, 2024
 
FSR: After 6.Nxf7!, best play appears to be 6...Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Nb4! 9.O-O c6 10.d4 Qf6 11.Qd1 Ke7 12.Re1 and now Black chooses between 12...Qg6 and 12...h6. Opening Explorer . ChessBase Online shows that 12...Qg6 was played 50 times, with White scoring 68% (27 White wins, 14 draws, 9 ...
 
(replies) indicates a reply to the comment.

Kibitzer's Corner
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Oct-31-24
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: Submitted:

[Event "1GOD 2300-2399 (GER)"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2024.10.25"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Seidl, Albert"]
[Black "Rhine, Frederick"]
[ECO "B54"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2336"]
[BlackElo "2335"]
[Source "https://www.iccf.com/game?id=1502093"]

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.f3 e5 6.Nb3 d5 7.Bg5 d4 8.c3 Nc6 9.Bb5 h6 10.Bd2 Qb6 11.Bxc6+ bxc6 12.cxd4 a5 13.Nc3 a4 14.Nc5 exd4 15.N3xa4 Qb5 16.Rc1 Bxc5 17.Nxc5 Rxa2 18.b4 Ba6 19.Nxa6 Qxa6 20.Qe2 d3 21.Qe3 O-O 22.O-O Rd8 23.Rfd1 Ne8 24.Qc5 1/2-1/2

Nov-01-24
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: Submitted:

[Event "1GOD1 2300-2399 (GER)"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2024.10.25"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Seidl, Albert"]
[Black "Rhine, Frederick"]
[ECO "A32"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2336"]
[BlackElo "2335"]
[Source "https://www.iccf.com/game?id=1502657"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Qc2 O-O 5.e4 d5 6.e5 Ne4 7.Bd3 c5 8.Nf3 cxd4 9.Nxd4 Nd7 10.Bf4 Qh4 11.g3 Qh5 12.O-O g5 13.cxd5 gxf4 14.dxe6 Nxc3 15.exd7 fxg3 16.hxg3 Bxd7 17.bxc3 Rac8 18.Bf5 Bxc3 19.Qd1 Qxd1 20.Raxd1 Rc4 21.Bxd7 Rxd4 22.f4 Rd8 23.e6 1/2-1/2

Nov-02-24
Premium Chessgames Member
  Teyss: Hi FSR,

Following your last posts I was wondering how you play correspondence. Is it by mail or through a dedicated site, for instance looking like a scoresheet where players note their moves? What is the frequency e.g. one move per day? Any anecdote you'd like to share? No offence taken if you don't have time to answer.

For info I sometimes read Rogoff since the US campaign is going full speed (i.e. since Harris took over) and share your opinions, as well as those of perfidious, sfod, etc. Don't feel like jumping in because you make much more valid points than I would. Fingers crossed.

Nov-02-24
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: Submitted:

[Event "1GOD 2300-2399 (GER)"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2024.10.25"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Rhine, Frederick"]
[Black "Schulz, Rene"]
[ECO "D35"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2335"]
[BlackElo "2333"]
[Source "https://www.iccf.com/game?id=1502118"]

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Be7 6.e3 O-O 7.Bd3 h6 8.Bh4 c5 9.dxc5 Nbd7 10.Nge2 Nxc5 11.O-O Be6 12.Bc2 Rc8 13.Nd4 Qb6 14.Rb1 Nce4 15.Nxe6 Qxe6 16.Bxf6 Nxf6 17.Qf3 Rc7 18.Bb3 Rd8 19.Rfd1 Rcd7 20.Rd3 Bb4 21.Nxd5 Nxd5 22.Rbd1 Qf6 23.Bxd5 Qxf3 24.gxf3 Kf8 25.Kg2 Be7 26.Kg3 g6 27.f4 a5 28.e4 b6 29.Rc1 Kg7 30.Rb3 Bc5 31.h4 h5 32.Rc2 Rc7 33.a3 Rdc8 34.Rbc3 Bd6 35.Rxc7 Rxc7 36.Rxc7 Bxc7 37.e5 f5 38.b4 Kf8 1/2-1/2

Nov-02-24
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: Hi, <Teyss>. Just three days until Election Day. Keeping my fingers crossed.

I play correspondence chess on ICCF (International Correspondence Chess Federation). It is free to join, but there is a small entry fee for most tournaments. For each of one's games, their interface displays the current position and the moves played. One then makes one's next move on the board, "Submits" it, and finally "Commits" it. The time control is 50 moves per 10 days, which strikes me as ridiculously long. Given that players are using engines, it takes more like five minutes rather than five days to select a move. It is a very different and more sterile experience than OTB games.

At high levels (e.g. where both players are using engines with reasonable proficiency), the vast majority of games (~97%) are drawn. Many decisive games result from clerical errors, which should never occur if one is careful. My first ICCF tournament, the 2023 USCF Absolute Correspondence Chess Championship, a 13-player round robin, had just one decisive game. In some tournaments, all the games are drawn.

In the current world championship finals, the only decisive games thus far, with most of the games finished, have resulted from one player dying and thus forfeiting his remaining 10 games. No doubt the six players who had already drawn him weren't happy. One player is refusing draws and playing out every game as long as possible in the hope that another of his opponents drops dead, thereby making him world champion. Here is my writeup of the last world championship finals: 32nd Correspondence World Championship (2020).

Nov-02-24
Premium Chessgames Member
  Fusilli: <FSR>, on a note totally unrelated to chess, one of my grad school professors died in August, and her Wikipedia page still has her alive. If it's not too much to ask, would you mind editing it? I don't want to risk doing something wrong and messing up the page.

This is the announcement of her passing:

https://almanac.upenn.edu/articles/...

Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan...

Nov-02-24  stone free or die: <<FSR> One then makes one's next move on the board, "Submits" it, and finally "Commits" it. >

Just curious - what's the difference between "submitting" a move and "committing" one?

.

Nov-02-24
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: <stone free or die: . . . what's the difference between "submitting" a move and "committing" one?>

Finality. You can change your mind on a "submitted" move, but not a "committed" one. ICCF makes you perform three steps in order to minimize the risk of clerical errors or "mouseslips." But people still manage to make them.

Nov-02-24  stone free or die: Is your opponent allowed to see your "submitted" move before "committing" it?

.

Nov-02-24
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: <sfod> No, the opponent only sees your move once you've committed it. Committing the move is analogous to mailing it in postal chess. That's the end. In postal chess, if you fill out a postcard with your move, but then change your mind and don't put it in the mailbox, the opponent won't know that happened. Same thing with a move you "submit," but change your mind and don't "commit."
Nov-02-24
Premium Chessgames Member
  Fusilli: Thank you so much, <FSR>, I appreciate it.
Nov-02-24
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: <Fusilli> No problem.
Nov-03-24
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: Submitted:

[Event "1GOD1 2300-2399 (GER)"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2024.10.25"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Rhine, Frederick"]
[Black "Wong, Victor"]
[ECO "A57"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2335"]
[BlackElo "2334"]
[Source "https://www.iccf.com/game?id=1502671"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 b5 4.cxb5 a6 5.e3 e6 6.dxe6 fxe6 7.Nf3 d5 8.Nc3 c4 9.Be2 axb5 10.Nxb5 Na6 11.O-O Nc5 12.Bd2 Bd7 13.Nc3 Bd6 14.Rb1 Nce4 15.b3 cxb3 16.axb3 Nxd2 17.Qxd2 Qa5 18.Ra1 Qxa1 19.Rxa1 Rxa1+ 20.Bf1 O-O 21.Qb2 Rfa8 22.g3 e5 23.Na4 Rd1 24.Kg2 e4 25.Nd4 Be5 26.Qc2 Ra1 27.Nc6 Bd6 28.Be2 Ng4 29.Qb2 Re1 30.Bxg4 Bxg4 31.Ne5 Bxe5 32.Qxe5 Rf8 33.Qxd5+ Kh8 34.Qd6 Kg8 35.Nc3 Bf3+ 36.Kh3 Rf6 37.Qd8+ Kf7 38.Kh4 Rh1 39.Qc7+ Ke6 40.Qc6+ Kf7 41.Qc7+ Ke6 1/2-1/2

Nov-03-24
Premium Chessgames Member
  Teyss: Hi FSR,
Thanks for the the info, it's very interesting. I wonder if there's a way to reduce the number of draws. Maybe as you say increase the frequency e.g. like a rapid game, so that players can use engines to have optimal moves, but still include a human strategic view bypassing the horizon effect? What would be the difference with OTB then? Well, players wouldn't have to move ;)

Hi Fusilli,
Just for info if needed it's easy to create an account on Wikipedia and to edit pages. A bit too easy IMHO but must say the regulation afterwards is quite efficient. It then works for all editions worldwide.

Nov-03-24  stone free or die: <FSR> just a final question.

The submit/commit step seems a bit redundant (and certainly non-postal).

Do you find it useful, and if so, why?

.

Nov-03-24
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: <sfod> Yes, it is a useful step to reduce the number of blunders. For me, it is invaluable because I play long conditional moves, which almost no one does. I'll put the position into an engine, decide on a sequence of moves, submit them, then input them into the engine again to check them, sometimes revise or shorten the conditional, then finally commit once I'm satisfied.
Nov-03-24  stone free or die: Right. Just to understand - what is the time period over which this process takes place?

.

Nov-03-24
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: <sfod> How long do I take to decide on a series of moves and send them off? Not that long. I don't keep track, but it would be unusual to spend as long as half an hour. Often it is much shorter. I'll wake up in the morning, have four games in which my opponent has moved, and send off responses to all of them in 20 minutes. (Of course I don't always send long conditionals. Sometimes I send short ones, or just play a single move as almost everyone else does.) Most ICCF players play much more slowly than I do, rarely if ever play conditional moves, and never play long conditionals as I do. Of course you have to be very careful not to screw up.

The other night, as Black in a Sicilian Najdorf, I played 7...Be6 and sent off a conditional ending in a draw by perpetual on move 38. It mostly followed J Nierobisz vs F Rhine, 2024, so I didn't have to reinvent the wheel. Unlike in postal chess, the opponent can't see your conditional. It is only triggered if he (or very rarely she; I think I've only had two female opponents in over 200 games) keeps playing the "right" move. Unlike in postal chess, you can't send multiple conditionals at a time. For example, I can't play a Ruy Lopez and send, "If 3...a6, then 4.Bxc6. If 3...Nf6, then 4.O-O." ICCF lets you send only a single variation, which can be as long as you want.

When I played postal chess, having to use my own brain without an engine, I would sometimes take hours to decide on a single move. I spent hours analyzing 22...Qd3!! to a forced win in K Thompson vs F Rhine, 1992, writing out pages of analysis on my legal pad.

Nov-03-24
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: <sfod> If you're asking how long a whole game can take, the answer is sometimes over a year. The second and third ICCF tournaments I entered began in May and July 2023. They still have a few games left to finish, even though mine finished long ago.
Nov-03-24  stone free or die: <FSR> oh, I think I realized the extreme duration. And now you've told me roughly how long it takes you to submit a move.

I'm still a little unclear of the time it takes you to "commit" a game move (though I know you do another run-through with the engine).

Nov-03-24
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: [Event "1GOD1 2300-2399 (GER)"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2024.10.25"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Rhine, Frederick"]
[Black "Wimmer, Ralph G."]
[ECO "D97"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2335"]
[BlackElo "2327"]
[Source "https://www.iccf.com/game?id=1502674"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Qb3 dxc4 6.Qxc4 O-O 7.e4 a6 8.Be2 b5 9.Qb3 c5 10.dxc5 Bb7 11.O-O Nxe4 12.Nxe4 Bxe4 13.Bf4 Bd5 14.Qe3 Bxb2 15.Rad1 e6 16.Nd4 Re8 17.Bg5 Qc7 18.Nxb5 axb5 19.Rxd5 Ra3 20.Rd3 Rxa2 21.Rfd1 Ra1 22.Rxa1 Bxa1 23.Rd1 Bg7 24.Bxb5 Rc8 25.Rc1 Nc6 26.Bxc6 1/2-1/2

Nov-03-24
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: <sfod> You receive an email telling you that your opponent has played a move. You click on the link to go to the game on the ICCF website. You see a chessboard with the position. You use your mouse to execute the move you want to play. You click on "Submit Move." You click on "Commit Move." All of this can be done in seconds if you so desire.
Nov-04-24  stone free or die: <<FSR> All of this can be done in seconds if you so desire.>

Yes, I understand. But I asked about you.

I guess, a ballpark estimate of the typical delay between when you submit a move versus committing it.

I can see the 2nd run-through as a double check to see that the submitted move didn't involve a clerical error of some kind. So I can take a rough guess, but I'm still curious about your play (for some reason - maybe just to get the missing answer for completeness).

Nov-04-24
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: <sfod> I will often, using Stockfish and ChessBase, decide on a long (or short) series of moves, "Submit" them to ICCF, then copy and paste that sequence back into ChessBase and again use Stockfish to confirm that I have typed the moves correctly and there are no major improvements. If so, I will go back to the ICCF game board and Confirm.

If I have decided to only play a single move, with no conditional, I will make that move on the ICCF board, eyeball it to make sure everything is in order, then hit both Submit and Confirm very close together. I don't look at the position again between Submit and Confirm. Not sure why you seem to be so fascinated by this subject. :-)

Nov-04-24
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: Submitted:

[Event "MVMD1 2300-2399 (BUL)"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2024.07.25"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Rhine, Frederick"]
[Black "Smith, Josh"]
[ECO "D70"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2334"]
[BlackElo "2359"]
[Source "https://www.iccf.com/game?id=1481854"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.f3 e6 4.e4 c5 5.d5 Bg7 6.Nc3 d6 7.Bg5 exd5 8.cxd5 O-O 9.Qd2 a6 10.a4 Re8 11.Nge2 Nbd7 12.Ng3 h5 13.Be2 h4 14.Nf1 c4 15.Ne3 Nc5 16.Nxc4 Nb3 17.Qd1 Nxa1 18.Qxa1 h3 19.g3 b6 20.Qa3 Bf8 21.b4 Be7 22.Be3 Nd7 1/2-1/2

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