|Sinquefield Cup (2018)|
The 6th Sinquefield Cup saw ten of the world's best players compete in the Saint Louis Chess Club from 18-27 August 2018. The event was the 4th and last leg of the 2018 Grand Chess Tour before the final in London, with Magnus Carlsen joining the tour regulars as a wild card. In addition to tour points (GP) the prize fund was $300,000, with $75,000 for 1st place. Players received 100 minutes for 40 moves then 60 minutes for the rest of the game, with a 30-second delay from move 1. A tie for first place would be decided in a 2-game rapid mini-match (10 min + 5 sec delay), only between the top two, and if necessary an Armageddon game (5 vs. 4) on 28 August at 13:00 local time. (1) In the end, three players tied for first. The three decided to share the first place and not to have any playoff.
Category: XXII (2797). Chief arbiter: Christopher Bird. (2)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 GP
=1 Aronian 2794 * ½ ½ ½ 1 ½ ½ ½ 1 ½ 5½ 15
=1 Carlsen 2866 ½ * ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ 1 1 5½ 15
=1 Caruana 2785 ½ ½ * ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ 1 1 5½ 15
4 Mamedyarov 2782 ½ ½ ½ * ½ ½ ½ 1 ½ ½ 5 10
=5 Grischuk 2782 0 ½ ½ ½ * ½ ½ ½ ½ 1 4½ 6
=5 Anand 2771 ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ * ½ ½ ½ ½ 4½ 6
=5 Vachier-Lagrave 2796 ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ * ½ ½ ½ 4½ 6
8 So 2794 ½ ½ ½ 0 ½ ½ ½ * ½ ½ 4 3
=9 Karjakin 2791 0 0 0 ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ * ½ 3 1½
=9 Nakamura 2812 ½ 0 0 ½ 0 ½ ½ ½ ½ * 3 1½
Standings affter four GCT events: 1 Nakamura with 34.5 GCT points (GP), 2 Aronian (34), 3 MVL (31), =4 Caruana (26), =4 So (26), 6 Karjakin (25.5), 7 Mamedyarov (25), 8 Grischuk (18), 9 Anand (15). The 4th place was decided by a Rapid playoff at the Saint Louis Chess Club on 28 August. Caruana won by taking the second rapid game to score 1½-½, see https://en.chessbase.com/post/saint...
Official site: https://grandchesstour.org/2018-gra...
Previous: Sinquefield Cup (2017). Next: Sinquefield Cup (2019). Previous GCT event: St. Louis Rapid & Blitz (Blitz) (2018). Next (the final): London Chess Classic (2018)
(1) Chess24: Sinquefield Cup https://chess24.com/en/watch/live-t... (2) http://chess-results.com/tnr371468....
| page 1 of 2; games 1-25 of 45
| page 1 of 2; games 1-25 of 45
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 23 OF 23 ·
|Sep-19-18|| ||AylerKupp: <<Sally Simpson> A good analyst can, and often does, offer an explanation as to why a shot was missed. This very act alone shows you he is treating the game as a human v human encounter, they are not out to destroy but embellish the game. Give their take on it and help the reader understand and possibly enjoy the game even more.>|
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Some reasons such as time trouble and perhaps a player pressing because it's the last round of the tournament and they need a win with the Black pieces to tie or overtake the tournament leader would be reasonable explanations and this information is not typically available to chess engines. But how would an analyst know if, say, a player was under the weather, had a bad night's sleep, had a fight with his/her significant other, was suffering from the proverbial jet lag, or other things like that? Only the player can answer if those factors affected his/her play. If the analyst is trying to come up with such explanations then that's just pure conjecture on their part, nothing more. Some of us find this conjecture interesting, other don't.
With respect to the claim that Fischer's 22.e5 was not the best in the position from Fischer vs Spassky, 1972, based on a 82-ply analysis, that makes me gag. It's obvious that the poster doesn't seem to know how to use chess engines to reach a definitive evaluation of a position. First, he doesn't indicate what the evaluation of 22.e5 was compared to 22.Qh3; if their evaluation differed by one centipawn then I certainly wouldn't consider one move better than another. Second, he didn't seem to have done any forward sliding to try to see if there were any deviations by Black that would have improved his chances and to determine if the analysis suffered from the horizon effect or overly-aggressive search tree pruning. And, finally, he used only one engine instead of several engines. I personally think that use of multiple engines is essential in arriving at a definitive evaluation of a position since different engines have different evaluation functions and may come up with different evaluations. If they do, then who is to say that one engine's evaluation is better than the evaluation of another engine of comparable playing strength?
I fairness to the poster he did indicate that the Stockfish line that he posted was "an example best-play variation", implying that there are other possible "best play" lines.
|Sep-19-18|| ||AylerKupp: <<Sally Simpson> 22.e5 won. Spassky resigned on move 41. Why do we need to see another possible 'obvious win' taking 22 moves longer. If 22.e5 had been a blunder or 22 Qh3 a neat quick mate. The yes, otherwise what has the computer textless analysis with 22.Qh3 done?>|
The poster did preface his post by saying that Kasparov believed that Spassky would not have been hopelessly lost if he had played 22...Nb6 instead of 22...Rb8, implying that while 22.e5 might have deserved a "!", it did not necessarily lead to a lost position for Black. Assuming, of course, that Kasparov's assessment was accurate. But 22.e5 was certainly not a blunder, and yet an assessment by Kasparov probably should be given some consideration. After all, he's a "human" and, as far as chess playing goes, certainly a "good human".
But you're right, the poster may not have needed to provide another possible 'obvious win' after 22 moves longer, although I'm not sure how he could have shown that 23.Qh3 also led to a win without a variation of that as I've indicated above. After all, in the actual game the position after 41.Qf4 which caused Spassky to resign was and "obvious loss" for Black. FWIW, this it what I got from Stockfish 9 at d=48 after 40 seconds of calculation:
1. [+M7]: 41...Qg8 42.Qe5 Qxg2+ 43.Kxg2 Rg7+ 44.Kf3 Rc8 45.e7 Kh7 46.Qf5+ Rg6 47.Qxg6+ Kh8 48.Qxh6#
2. [+M6]: 41...Kg8 42.Rxh6 Rxe6 43.Qxc7 Qf7 44.Qd8+ Qe8 45.Bxe6+ Kf8 46.Qf6+ Qf7 47.Qxf7#
3. [+M5]: 41...d3 42.Rf8+ Kh7 43.Bxd3+ Qg6 44.Bxg6+ Kxg6 45.Qg3+ Kh5 46.Rf5#
Since Spassky was certainly capable of seeing these variations OTB within a reasonable amount of time he was certainly justified in resigning. But if both 22.e5 and 22.Qh3 lead to a win for White in a similar number of moves, why quibble as to which one is a better move?
<And.....I'm with W.P.E. 100%. 960 is not Chess.>
Perhaps not. After all, what is and is not chess is a matter of personal opinion since, as Donald Trump's attorney Rudy Giuliani indicated, "Truth is not truth" .(https://www.cnn.com/videos/cnnmoney...)
All I can say is that for the last 10 years FIDE has disagreed with both you and <WorstPlayerEver> by including the rules for Chess960 as part of their official Laws of Chess. Form your own opinion.
|Sep-19-18|| ||WorstPlayerEver: The what????|
|Sep-19-18|| ||WorstPlayerEver: Sukkin Kalmukkian Dik.|
|Sep-19-18|| ||AylerKupp: <<Sokrates> I understand both you and <some of us> who <strive for objective perfection>, but I can't follow your passion for it, because I think the road aboard the computer vehicle leads into a neverending desert.>|
That's OK and understandable. The search for objective perfection is a neverending one. I can only hope that the sighting of it at the end of a neverending desert is not a mirage.
<But this is actually a subjective, personal matter. I love human imperfection, I love the old BC games with all their errors and mistakes.>
True, we are all different and enjoy different things. But I assume that you don't enjoy games played by low-rated players that are full of silly errors and obvious mistakes (I don't), so you must have an upper threshold of errors and mistakes that you are willing to tolerate and still enjoy the imperfect game. And I doubt that perfection in chess will be achieved any time soon, certainly not in our lifetime, so we still have the rest of our lives to enjoy these not too imperfect games.
<To me it's still primarily a game between human minds, and I salute the imperfection and subjectivity that comes with it. I don't see it as a flaw or a mistake that should be rectified.>
Neither do I. A game between two human players is fascinating because of all the reasons you mentioned. And a game between two strong engines is equally fascinating (at least to me) but for different reasons. Given that both engines are very, very, very strong players, how was one engine able to defeat the other? What did the losing engine do wrong and why are some of the questions that I find fascinating.
<To me there is nothing worse (relatively spoken, of course) than using a strong computer programmes to dissect all the masterpieces of the BC past to show how flawed they were and how primitive they were in their understanding of chess.>
I addressed that question to <Sally Simpson> above must maybe you can answer it. What do you see is the difference between a person using a computer to dissect all the chess masterpieces of the past and, as a human in the comfort of your home or study, with all the time that you choose to devote to the effort, and with the ability to move the pieces on the board, dissecting all the same chess masterpieces? An OTB chess masterpiece is created between 2 players (or computers, for that matter) with a clock ticking away while a post-game analyst, whether they use computers or not, are not operating under different circumstances. So why do you think that the person using a computer to dissect a masterpiece should be frowned upon and yet the person not using a computer, under circumstances very different than the circumstances under which the game was played, should not?
|Sep-19-18|| ||AylerKupp: <<WorstPlayerEver> The what????>|
That is a VERY open question. But I suspect that the answer is 42. Which, BTW, Wikipedia defines as "the natural number that succeeds 41 and precedes 43". I kid you not! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42_(n....
|Sep-19-18|| ||WorstPlayerEver: We are all the same. Some do take themselves seriously. Those I will burn in hell. |
|Sep-19-18|| ||AylerKupp: <<WorstPlayerEver> Sukkin Kalmukkian Dik.>|
|Sep-19-18|| ||WorstPlayerEver: <AylerKupp>
The FIDE. FYI
Oh well, it's 3 o'clock here... on a scale of 24 hours. Time to stuff some painkillers down my throat.. this is unbearable!
|Sep-19-18|| ||WorstPlayerEver: PS btw how did you get my PIN code??? Lately I could not remember it myself.|
|Sep-20-18|| ||Sokrates: Hi <AylerKupp>, always a pleasure to discuss with you.|
The point of my critics towards dissecting old BC games with computer programmes was not about doing it, but about the intention of doing it. If the intention is to analyse chess positions and gain new understanding I am all in for it.
In my modest chess library I have "John Nunn's Chess Course" which is mainly based on the games of Lasker. Nunn says in the introduction, "I have chosen the games solely for their instruction qualities." Obviously, Nunn finds faults and mistakes made by Lasker and his opponents but his intention is not to degrade games that were considered as masterpieces, but to use their positive learning qualities for better understanding of chess.
Sure, games between, say 1400 rating players will be packed with faults. But the beauty of chess is ALSO the relative experience of it. The two 1400 players who create what THEY think is a great game counts as much for them as a fine game between Carlsen and Caruana. IF perfection was paramount, only + 2750 players should be allowed to play chess and enjoy their games. I am sure you'll agree that the basic thrill and charm of chess is the fact that it can be played and enjoyed at all levels.
Transfer this to the upper 15 players today. They all realise that they could be beaten severely by any of the best programmes available, but fortunately they keep playing their games with the errors and mistake in the wake. However, if the programmes are used to conquer half of the games as it happens not too rarely now, then it becomes a battle between those who are best at memorizing what the machine created and that, my dear AK, is what I see as dystopy for chess.
|Sep-20-18|| ||WorstPlayerEver: Well, without kidding, obviously <AylerKupp> is right; the more a player depends on computer evaluations, the more they undermine their self-confidence.|
|Sep-20-18|| ||keypusher: <Sally> I see you're still writing nonsense about computers. |
Humans play chess games; other humans (annotators) write about those games in books, magazines, and online. If the human annotators don't use computers to check their work, they'll make mistakes (big and little). They'll do their job badly, and confuse and mislead their readers. It's that simple.
Memorize the preceding paragraph, and perhaps 90% of the nonsense you write on this topic will die on your keyboard.
|Sep-20-18|| ||Sally Simpson: Hi AylerKupp,
FIDE can endorse and make up rules for 960 if they want. It's a chess variant, some like it, some don't. I don't.
A human noting up a game can look at across table, see previous results between the two players, read reports of the game or even have talked to one or both of the players or read accounts of those who have.
Pachman, Vukovic, Spielmann and other experienced Masters all give a fair amount to time to the shock of a sacrifice or the unexpected move.
A human could know all of this, and more. but there is no way to let a computer know any of this so it can add this into it's calculations (and that includes 'Alpha Zero, Leela C0, Deus X, or any other chess engine based on neural networks')
It will display variations which it considers are the best moves for both sides without any other reasoning. If anything it is the one offering conjecture.
This also answers your question to Socrates and myself as to why I (I cannot answer in full for Socrates ) think analysis without any explanation or human input from a computer, especially in finding an alternative longer win, is a fruitless exercise. (though here as in the case of 960 some do enjoy posting this stuff...so be it.)
It is made even more fruitless by the fact this site does not have a method of displaying a PGN in a post.
You are asking a C.G. browser to go to a lot of trouble and faffing about to actually see this analysis without a header.
Very few of the computer posters actually give a full header including a fen so you can, if you are interested, copy and paste it straight into a pgn browser. (even then you have to do some tweaking to get rid of the evo number.)
I'm sure I'm not far wrong in saying 90% of these computer dumps without a header or diagram go unplayed.
Till that happy day when C.G. does have a pgn playing thingy to incorporate into a post the best we have is posts like this, how it should be done.
Showalter vs Janowski, 1900 (kibitz #1)
|Sep-20-18|| ||Sally Simpson: Hi K.P.
"<Sally> I see you're still writing nonsense about computers."
I see you are still wading in with your size 10's without reading what we are discussing.
I embrace chess computers as a tool for the writer to check 'their' analysis.
as you yourself said:
". If the human annotators don't use computers to check their work, they'll make mistakes "
The key words your are using is 'their work.'
I box check my stuff if it gets too hairy (or an endgame :))
Occasionally when I have use one and I have to nudge it towards an interesting position it refused to display it can, and has, dropped a beautiful variation into my lap.
Then it's a wonderful piece of kit. I can slip that note in, it's beautiful (and I do give a computer credit.)
I was highlighting my dislike in seeing bland row after row of computer analysis without rime or reason. It's not 'their work.' A non chess player could do that.
I would like to see some sweat, some stab at a reason even if they are away on the wrong track. That can be discussed, corrected or even endorsed and the corrector corrected. (I've re-read that bit, it makes sense.) Everyone learns.
But I also added some here enjoy posting this stuff. So be it.
|Sep-20-18|| ||Sally Simpson: Hi (the ghost of K.P.)
I see you have deleted your post.
Not me. I play touch move.
|Sep-20-18|| ||botvinnik64: Olympiad starts (1st round) Monday. USA! USA! USA!
I'm looking for the line-ups for all the teams - fide.com? chessresults?|
|Sep-20-18|| ||botvinnik64: batumi2018.fide.com is the official website from Georgia. USA is 2777 rating; Russia is 2767. Of course, Azerbaijan and China and India have monster teams. Magnus is not playing, but Fabby is.|
|Sep-20-18|| ||AylerKupp: <Sokrates> And it's a pleasure for me to discuss things with you. And I suppose that it never occurred to me that there could be any other purpose in analyzing chess positions other than gaining new understanding but perhaps I'm just too naive. But, like any search for understanding, it requires work. Copying and pasting into a post long lines of computer analysis gains you nothing other than practice in copying and pasting, and very quickly you reach the point of diminishing returns. I personally try (sometimes I fail) to review all computer lines looking for reasonable alternatives and exploring those with the aid of an engine and try to understand why the computer selected those moves and why it rejected some of, what looked to me, reasonable alternative moves. And, of course, the horizon effect is always lurking in the background in either subtle or not so subtle ways, and you must check that this is not the case by forward sliding.|
And don't get me wrong, I greatly enjoy games that might have mistakes in them. Take, for example, today's puzzle (Kotronias vs Xiu Deshun, 2011). An incredible performance in my opinion by Kotronias, even though many posters ran computer analyses and found that either some of Kotronias' sacrifices were not quite sound and that Black could have defended better. So what? I <expect> that there will be errors in all chess games, whether they are played by humans or computers. It doesn't diminish my enjoyment of these games in any way. After all, Tal is my all-time favorite player and even he admitted that many of his sacrifices were not quite sound.
But OTB (literally and figuratively in the case of computers) can't be perfect in the sense that one or both players play the objectively best move whenever they have the chance. OTB chess is about finding the best <practical> chances, not necessarily the objectively best move. If one has a choice between the objectively best move that will lead to a win many moves later or a somewhat speculative move that will have fairly good chances of not only ending the game much quicker and in style, which one would we pick? I'll bet that most of us would pick the speculative move.
And if it doesn't always work, so what? You can learn from it by finding out the reasons why it didn't succeed and improve your game as a result. Assuming that's one of your objectives.
As far as chess becoming a battle between those who are best at memorizing what has been analyzed before, that's hardly new. Many games in the BC era were determined by who was privy to the most recent and likely most lengthy analysis. In my opinion all that computers have done is raised the ante on the amount of memorization that is required at the highest level.
|Sep-20-18|| ||AylerKupp: <Sally Simpson> FIDE can endorse and make up rules for 960 if they want. It's a chess variant, some like it, some don't. I don't.>|
Well, if you take the long view the game of chess that we are most familiar with (which I'll call "modern chess") probably dates back to no earlier than 1475 or so (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histo...) when the rules were changed and the queen gained its standing as the most powerful piece. According to this article chess or a reasonably recognizable facsimile goes back at least 1,500 years and precursors of chess go back much further. So you could consider "modern chess" a variant of the chess that was popular immediately preceding it. And if some day a different form of chess (which I'll call "future chess") becomes prevalent, then we might consider "modern chess" as a variant of "future chess". But, regardless, it's what you like that's important. Certainly to you.
As far as there not being a way to let a computer know things like previous results between the two players, games between its opponent and others, and types of positions that its opponent does not play particularly well so that it can try to steer the game along those lines, of course there is. All it takes is disk storage, inputting the data, and ways to determine how to use the information to bias the evaluation of a position taking its opponents weaknesses into account.
No, this hasn't been done (yet). But don't confuse something that hasn't been yet done with something that can't be done. All it takes is finding a reason to justify the effort required against the benefit of having this capability.
As far as analysis without any explanation, whether it's done by humans or computers, being a fruitless exercise, I agree. I've seen many examples of lengthy (> 40 moves) analyses done by humans that supposedly "prove" that a particular move leads to a win, draw, or loss. Just look as some of the recent Team White vs. Team Black games where use of computers is prohibited. So such fruitless analyses not restricted to computers.
As far as this site not having at least a link to a PGN browser, that's unfortunate. But, given all the PGN browsers available that you can download, it should not be too difficult to copy and paste an analysis from a post into such a browser <PROVIDED> that the post adheres to the PGN standard. And that's probably the most difficult thing to enforce. I, for one, probably don't adhere to the PGN standard when I post analyses, whether they're my own or computer generated, and maybe I should. And I certainly don't include a PGN header but, again, maybe I should.
But I don't see what having or not having a PGN header has to do with viewing the moves. There is no information in a PGN header that is required in order to display the moves. Most of the information in the PGN header is irrelevant since you are not looking at a <game>, you're looking at an analysis which can, at best, be considered a fragment of a game. For example, I've created a viewer written in Visual Basic for Applications (VBE) which is attached to an Excel spreadsheet that allows you to select any set of moves, whether they are part of a game or not, and display all the moves on a chessboard. So I think that any PGN viewer could, if desired, display the required header tag descriptors and something like "???" for all the missing field. <chessgames.com> does that a lot when it comes to displaying the players' rating which, BTW, is not one of the required fields to be included in the PGN header.
With regards to <KEG>'s analysis in Showalter vs Janowski, 1900 (kibitz #1), yes, that's certainly an improvement over what is usually done but perhaps you should note that it does not conform to the PGN standard (no header, notes not enclosed in ..., etc.). Not that it matters much, I don't think. Hopefully you consider this computer-generated posted analysis of mine (and the post that follows it) as passing the 20,000 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean test: M Stean vs Browne, 1974 (kibitz #56). But it doesn't conform to the PGN standard either.
|Sep-21-18|| ||Sally Simpson: Hi AylerKupp,
Agree that as 'yet' there is no way to add into a computer all the baggage that comes with a human v human game but yes, give it time.
Chess 960 will result in someone getting murdered!
Imagine the scene. Two blokes in the park playing chess 960 and have just set this up on their board.
click for larger view
Along comes a well meaning stranger, 'tut-tut-tut. You boys have it all wrong' and starts setting up pieces correctly.
A fight breaks out...
I see the problem with trying to post a fen and analysis from a set position. Here (and this is the only site that allows this) you can post a fen without the tags. Usually you have [fen]the fen[/fen]
So this makes a pgn viewer thing all the more a necessity.
Apparently they are easy to incorporate onto a site and some here sound like (or so their profiles tell us) clever computer people it. should be easily done.
I was instrumental in getting a pgn viewer thing on the ECF forum.
and I pestered the powers that be to get one on RHP in 2008.
These things are good. They encourage feedback from other posters. Friendships are formed, met up's happen, the player children meet their children and get married....
...one big happy family.
|Sep-21-18|| ||AylerKupp: <<Sally Simpson> Most mornings my wife and I walk to our local market and have breakfast consisting of a pastry and a latte. When we sit down to eat is when I first open up <chessgames.com> and look at the games and posts.|
This morning there was a longer than usual line to order the lattes so I starting to look at <chessgames.com> while in line. When I came across your statements "So this makes a pgn viewer thing all the more a necessity. Apparently they are easy to incorporate onto a site and some here sound like (or so their profiles tell us) clever computer people it. should be easily done." I let out a big laugh and both my wife and the others in line turned around to see what the noise was. So, thanks, you made my day.
And along the lines of the "well meaning stranger" and lattes, I always ask for my latte to be made with whole milk and with a little bit of extra foam, even though lattes don't typically have any foam. I then go to select our pastries and pay our bill while I'm waiting for our lattes to be done.
One morning when I came to pick it up the gal who made it (who I've known for years and knows how I like my latte) told me that a "well meaning stranger" saw my completed latte, told her that she had made it wrong, and proceeded to tell her how to do it "properly". A fight almost broke out ...
And, since you were instrumental in getting a pgn viewer thing on the ECF forum and pestering the powers that be to get one on RHP in 2008, you seem to be the perfect man to accomplish something similar at <chessgames.com>. I will certainly support you, particularly once I become one of those "clever computer people" (I'm still working on the "clever" part). But I suspect that <chessgames.com> will be a tougher nut to crack.
Still, I'm sure that we'll remain "one big happy family".
|Sep-21-18|| ||Sally Simpson: Hi AylerKupp,
We are one of the very few sites that do not have a pgn thingy.
A small basic one. Nothing fancy. It would brighten the place up and encourage more of the good players...and there are a few knocking on here...to partake. I cannot see anybody objecting, why should they.
They obviously have the bones of the code because we can play over the thread games. All they need do is shrink the board and allow us to drop a game or piece of analysis into a thread.
|Sep-22-18|| ||Sokrates: Anyway, it was nice to see Aronian recover from his disaster at the candidates. It would be very sad to see this great player on a deroute.|
|Aug-19-19|| ||Tabanus: The two playoff games for GCT 4th place and qualification for participation in London Chess Classic (2018) are not in CG database.|
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