< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 16 OF 16 ·
|Jun-23-16|| ||offramp: From The Times:
What is the origin of the cherry/plum stone rhyme of "Tinker, tailor, soldier, sailor, rich man, poor man, beggar man, thief" and what is the significance of those particular "professions"?
The origin of the rhyme in question is ancient and has equivalents in
other European languages, including Swiss, German, Italian and Dutch.
In English the "professions" represent pairs of occupations. A tinker,
usually a Gypsy, was a mender of pots and kettles, (ie a botcher),
whereas a tailor is a respectable cutter of clothes. A soldier and
sailor are land and sea types. Rich and poor men are obvious. Beggar
men and thieves are also what the words imply.
The fortune-countdown dates from about 1475 -- with Caxton's The Game
and Playe of the Chesse, whereby each pawn is shown to have an
individuality of its own. The pawns were the labourer, smith, clerk,
merchant, physician, taverner, guard and ribald. The ribald, thief;
the ploughboy, labourer; the apothecary, physician; the soldier,
guard; the tailor, merchant; the tinker, smith; are effectively there.
Only two ingredients are really missing.
But the first four professions are, however, found linked together in
Congreve's Love for Love (1695): "A soldier and a sailor, a tinker and
a tailor/ Had once a doubtful strife, sir" (The strife was for a
Finally, one may quote a version in German, for comparison: "Kaiser,
König, Edelmann, Bürger, Bauer, Bettelmann."
|Jun-23-16|| ||Cibator: One latter-day version (courtesy of Steeleye Span) goes thus:|
Oh come lands, or come towns,
Oh come tinker or come tailor;
Come fiddler, come dancer,
Come ploughman or come sailor;
Come rich man, come poor man,
Come fool or come witty -
Come on any man at all,
Won't you marry out of pity??
(From "The Old Maid In The Garret")
Guess the soldier, the beggar-man and the thief couldn't be made to rhyme or scan.
And even so, you’d have to be playing some version of “Great Chess” (with a board 10 files wide) to accommodate that lot among your pawns.
|May-29-17|| ||offramp: I thought this was funny. It is from the wikipedia entry on that idiotic satanic charlatan Anton LaVey:|
<LaVey was born as Howard Stanton Levey>.
Undoubtedly a reincarnation.
|May-31-17|| ||MissScarlett: Definition of futility in chess - trying to organise a match between Staunton and Bobby Fischer.|
|Jun-12-17|| ||zanzibar: <MissS> are you still working on Staunton's origins?|
Why does <SCID>'s Rating.ssp give his birthdate as 1810.04.??, and <CG> only 1810?
|Jun-12-17|| ||zanzibar: <Batgirl> also gives April.|
Was this why you needed the Oxford ref?
|Jun-13-17|| ||zanzibar: <MissS> surely, being as old as you are, you were invited once or twice to his b-day party - so you must know it!|
|Mar-15-18|| ||offramp: In Grand Theft Auto III there is a Staunton Island: |
<The island is considered to be based on Manhattan, while the name is based on that of Staten Island. It includes landmarks based on the real landmarks of Manhattan...>
|Mar-17-18|| ||MissScarlett: <<Batgirl> also gives April.|
Was this why you needed the Oxford ref?>
I did find his 1898 DNB entry online:
No mention of April.
Note Murray's claim that Staunton commenced writing with the <ILN> in 1843 (https://web.archive.org/web/2007120...), Lee has 'about 1844', whereas Wikipedia and Crumiller (Howard Staunton (kibitz #351)) both go with 1845. An inspection of the relevant material may disclose distinctive elements of his style.
|Mar-17-18|| ||MissScarlett: I see now that <batgirl> specifies February 1845 as the start of his collaboration with the <ILN>. |
Suitably apprised, I find, in the edition of February 15th, p.12:
<We have great pleasure in announcing to our Chess subscribers and readers generally, that we have secured the valuable services of Mr. Staunton, the eminent Chess Player, to edit the Chess despartment [sic] of the Illustrated London News.>
|Mar-17-18|| ||MissScarlett: February 22nd, p.125, would appear to be his first column, wherein we find:|
<To keep pace, in some measure, with the increasing patronage bestowed by the public on this department of our paper, we have concluded arrangements for placing it under the direction of the leading player of the day, from whose well known information and experience on the subject, a series of articles, in the highest degree interesting to the lovers of Chess may be confidently looked for.
Our opening game is one of a novel description, which was played, not as any trial of skill, but "in a merry sport," between Mr. Staunton and M. Kieseritzki.>
An answer to a correspondent in the column of March 8th, p.160, points out <"Scacchi,” Glasgow, must be aware that the gentleman to whom he directs his comments, is not in any way responsible for the errors which may be found in this department of our paper prior to the 22nd of February.>
|Mar-17-18|| ||MissScarlett: <Howard Staunton - The English World Chess Champion>, R. Keene & R. Coles, BCM, 1975, p.1-2:|
<In the Dictionary of National Biography the article on Staunton was written by Sir Sidney Lee (1859-1926), for many years an editor and for some time sole editor of the Dictionary. He was, like Staunton, a Shakespearean scholar of note and therefore, one might think, well fitted to write an obituary. He quotes his chess sources, none of which supplied him with the information he gives that Howard Staunton was the illegitimate son of Frederick Howard, 5th Earl of Carlisle, from whom, he adds, Staunton received a 'few thousands' when he came of age, money which he quickly squandered. Staunton left many detractors behind him when he died, and perhaps Sir Sidney listened too closely to some ill-disposed tongue.
The 5th Earl of Carlisle (1748-1825) had been a gay spark and a famous dandy in his youth, but he married, became a sober politician and was Lord Privy Seal by 1783. In 1793 he was made a Knight of the Garter. He wrote a tract on the state of the contemporary theatre early in the 19th century, as well as two five-act verse tragedies. Howard Staunton was similarly given to elegance in dress and interest in the theatre, so that it was easy for the name Howard to suggest a connection. Sixty year old Knights of the Garter are as capable as anyone else of fathering illegitimate children, though Staunton, completing the church register at the time of his marriage, described his father as 'William Staunton, gentleman'. Of course father William may have been a figment of Staunton's imagination, conveniently created to conceal the truth from his bride. But then there is the story of the money he came into at the age of twenty-one. 'A few thousands' was a very large sum at the time when money had at least ten times its present value and would have taken quite a bit of squandering. Perhaps the fact that Staunton died a poor man suggested this part of the story. Since the Earl predeceased Staunton's coming-of-age by six years, the money could only have been received if there had been a written instruction in the will or if a special trust had been created. So far the archives at Castle Howard have yielded no such corroborative evidence.>
|Mar-17-18|| ||MissScarlett: The Oxford Companion to Chess, OUP, 1992. 2.ed, p.390:|
<Nothing is known for certain about Staunton's life before 1836, when his name appears as a subscriber to William Greenwood Walker's <Games at Chess, actually played in London, by the late Alexander McDonnell Esq.> Staunton states that he was born in Westmorland in the spring of 1810, that his father's name was William, that he acted with Edmund Kean, taking the part of Lorenzo in <The Merchant of Venice>, that he spent some time at Oxford (but not at the university), and that he came to London around 1836. Other sources suggest that as a young man he inherited a small legacy, married, and soon spent the money. He is supposed to have been brought up by his mother, his father having left home or died.
Staunton never contradicted the rumour that he was the natural son of the fifth Earl of Carlisle, a relationship that might account for his forename, for the Earl's family name was Howard, but the story is almost certainly untrue. (Edmund Kean claimed to be the son of the Duke of Norfolk, also a member of the Howard family.) In all probability Howard Staunton was not his real name. A contemporary, Charles Tomlinson (1808-97), writes: 'Rumour...assigned a different name to our hero [Staunton] when he first appeared as an actor and next as a chess amateur.'>
|Mar-18-18|| ||MissScarlett: <Staunton married a widow in 1849 and by doing so inherited her 8 children from the previous marriage. (surely he must have called them his little pawns.)>|
Lee and (consequently) Murray mistakenly claim this marriage took place in 1854. More on this union:
C.N. 4776: <As is well known [...], he married Frances Carpenter Nethersole on 23 February 1849 at St Nicholas, Brighton. However, a further fact derived from that website which I have not seen noted is that Frances Carpenter and William Dickenson Nethersole had no fewer than eight children baptized at St Clement Danes between 1826 and 1842.>
<Tab> should have fun tracking them down, but I found something about one. Notices appear for the wedding of <Frances Ada> Nethersole/Staunton, <eldest daughter of the late W. D. Nethersole>, to H.J. Owen of Liverpool on November 8th 1853. Her death, aged 24, on July 27th 1856, <the beloved wife of Henry James Owen>, is duly noted.
|Mar-18-18|| ||Dionysius1: <(surely he must have called them his little pawns.)> <Sally Simpson>I hope some of his 8 stepchildren grew up to enter the upper clergy, or the aristocracy, or marry royalty.|
|Mar-18-18|| ||MissScarlett: <As is well known [...], he married Frances Carpenter Nethersole on 23 February 1849 at St Nicholas, Brighton.>|
The first notice I can find of the happy event is the <ILN> itself, but not until as late as April 7th, and, by coincidence, it appears on the same p.231, as Staunton's column, albeit that week, it is restricted to a problem and problem solution, and cries off with <Our answers to Correspondents, and several Games, are unavoidably deferred.>
It mentions <Frances C> being the widow of <W. Nethersole> of Margate, but it's unclear if that refers to where Nethersole hailed from or, if different, where Frances had recently been living.
A second notice appears in the <Morning Post> of April 13th, p.8.
In wondering why the wedding took place in Brighton, is it too cynical to notice that a <long-expected> match between Harrwitz and Horwitz began in the town that same week, as duly reported by Staunton in his column of February 24th? Harrwitz vs Horwitz, 1849
|Mar-18-18|| ||ChessHigherCat: < Dionysius1: <(surely he must have called them his little pawns.)> <Sally Simpson>I hope some of his 8 stepchildren grew up to enter the upper clergy, or the aristocracy, or marry royalty.>|
Alas, the dear little wights were all sacrificed and gambitted before reaching marriageable age, despite their brief but lethal encounters with various bishops, knights, kings and queens.
|Mar-18-18|| ||MissScarlett: In the immortal words of Michael Caine as Inspector Frederick George Abberline in <Jack the Ripper> (1988): <Who are you?...YOU BASTARD!>|
|Mar-18-18|| ||Retireborn: <MissS> That sketch that Jane Seymour has (0:56) looks worryingly like Anatoly Karpov.|
|Mar-18-18|| ||Dionysius1: Crikey <Retireborn> - it looks very like Karpov, you're right.|
|Mar-18-18|| ||MissScarlett: <looks worryingly like Anatoly Karpov.>|
Hmmm, now you mention it....but the dates are all wrong, of course, and yet...1988, Karpov had been in London as recently as 1986 for the world championship match.
I remember that <Jack the Ripper> so well because I taped it when originally broadcast, and there are so many wonderful moments of high camp and unintentional humour, that snippets of dialogue remain with me. Would love to see it again, but YouTube's only got the whole thing dubbed into German!
Anyway, I think we're getting off the beaten track...
|Apr-07-18|| ||Tabanus: On Frances Carpenter Cates, from a well-sourced family tree:|
1805: Birth 18 Feb 1805 London, England
1806: Birth of Sister Emma Marsh Cates 18 Dec 1806 London
1808: Birth of Sister Catherine Parkins Cates 17 Jul 1808 London
1808: Frances baptized 15 Dec 1808 St George, Hanover Square
1811: Birth of Brother Adolphus Henry Cates abt 1811 London
1813: Birth of Sister Helen Louisa Cates 26 Dec 1813 London
1825: Marriage 10 Aug St Pancras Parish Chapel to William Nethersole
1827: Birth of Son William Edward Nethersole abt 1827 London
1831: Birth of Son Francis Nethersole abt 1831 London
1832: Birth of Daughter Frances Ada Nethersole abt 1832 London
1836: Birth of Daughter Mary Magdelene Nethersole abt 1836 London
1837: Birth of Daughter Sophia Charlotte Nethersole abt 1837 London
1841: Birth of Son Stephen Nethersole abt 1841 London
1841: Residence 1841 St Clement Danes, Middlesex
1842: Death of Husband William Nethersole Apr 1842 London
1843: Death of Son Stephen Nethersole Jul 1843 London
1849: Marriage 23 Jul 1849 Brighton to <Howard Staunton> (1810–1874)
1851: Residence Kensington, Middlesex
1856: Death of Daughter Frances Ada Nethersole Kensington London
1861: Residence 1861 Isleworth, Middlesex
1863: Death of Mother Elizabeth Goodson 3 May 1863 Kensington
1863: Death of Daughter Mary Magdelene Nethersole in Victoria, Australia
1871: Death of Sister Emma Marsh Cates Jan 1871 Kensington, London
1871: Residence 1871 Shorne, Kent, England
1873: Death of Daughter Sophia Nethersole 27 Nov 1873 Croydon, Surrey
1874: Death of Husband <Howard Staunton> 22 Jun 1874 Kensington, London
1876: Death of Son Francis Nethersole (1831–1876) 29 Jan 1876 London
1877: Death of Son William Nethersole (1827–1877) 30 Sep 1877 Cardiff, Wales
1879: Death of Brother Adolphus Henry Cates (1811–1879) Jul 1879 London
1881: Residence 1881 Paddington, London
1883: Death 7 May 1883 Kensington, London
|Apr-07-18|| ||MissScarlett: I note there's only six of the reported eight children of Frances listed here.|
|Apr-07-18|| ||MissScarlett: C.N. 10785:
<Actually Staunton was enabled to devote himself to serious chess through Lord Carlisle’s generosity. He was the son of a housemaid at Castle Howard. His mother continued to live for many years in the neighbouring village of Coneysthorpe.”’>
This wasn't what I had in mind when I half-joked: Biographer Bistro (kibitz #16723)
<The Lincoln, Rutland and Stamford Mercury>, 23rd September 1825, p.2:
<Connected with the Earl of Carlisle's death, a melancholy circumstance occurred in York last week. A Miss Monk, an elderly maiden, who kept a poulterer's shop in Peter's-lane, was in the habit of supplying his Lordship's larder, and those of many other great personages, when in York, with poultry. She had, for the present occasion, laid in and bespoken a large stock of fowls, ducks, geese, pigeons, &c., when she suddenly heard of her patron's demise, and immediately conceived that herself and the festival were irretrievably ruined. Not that even if the latter were injured by Lord Carlisle's demise she should have been plunged in the abyss of poverty — for she was passing rich — but she calculated with a gloomy imagination that she might probably not make some twenty pounds profit which she had anticipated, and rather than endure the horrors of such a calamity, death had charms. She accordingly took a strong dose of poison, and died. -— Verdict of the coroner's inquest, temporary insanity.>
|Apr-07-18|| ||offramp: Did she died?|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 16 OF 16 ·