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| page 1 of 2; games 1-25 of 27 |
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 19 OF 20 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Feb-07-24
 | | MissScarlett: Presently, none. |
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| Feb-07-24 | | Chessius the Messius: Dunno, think I could barely hold 1500 atm |
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| Feb-07-24 | | fabelhaft: <The world champ finishes at 6-7?> Far from it… |
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Feb-07-24
 | | perfidious: <fabelhaft: <The world champ finishes at 6-7?> Far from it…>
Ding indeed scored 6/13, or 6-7, or as the players themselves would put it, minus 1. He did not, however, finish sixth ex aequo. |
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| Feb-07-24 | | fabelhaft: <Ding indeed scored 6/13, or 6-7> That is true, didn’t see it written like that before. |
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| Feb-07-24 | | fabelhaft: There have been dozens of World Champion starts in Wijk, but no one with a minus score before, as far as I can see. The closest is Kramnik in 2004 with 6.5-6.5 and a couple of times with 7-6. Carlsen once had 7.5-5.5 at worst, as Anand a couple of times. Kasparov’s worst in three starts as World Champion was 9-4. |
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| Feb-07-24 | | fabelhaft: Anand has a difficult to beat record with 19 starts in Hoogeveen/Corus/Wijk over five decades, from 1980s to 2020s, and never with a minus score. |
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Feb-08-24
 | | Atterdag: Interesting little research, <fabelhaft>. If we go back to the Wijk 2023, Ding Liren's result is even worse: 5.5/14 ending at shared place 11-12 (with Gukesh). True, at the Candidates prior to the match with Nepo, DL was 2nd. Revisiting the score sheet reveals that Nepo clearly won that Candidates with 9.5/14 - i.e. 1.5 points ahead of DL as second. DL, however, was only 0.5 point ahead of Radjabov and Nakamura (8 over 7.5). It has already been discussed how DL got a ticket to these Candidates by advancing his ratings in internal Chinese tournaments. By the end of the Candidates it meant nothing how the score was below the winner, but due to Carlsen's scandalously late announcement, DL's result suddenly became crucial, which, I am sure, didn't put a smile on the faces of those who followed so close to DL. If only they had known ...! Nevertheless, FIDE chose to ignore these circumstances and gave DL the chance to fight for the title. Now, about that match, I think it's fair to say that it was won by the thinnest thinkable margin. During the match it is my - admittedly subjective - assessment that Nepo played the best chess and had the upper hand in most of the games. IMO it was Nepo's well-known weakness: his nerves, that got the better of him in the last thrilling game. DL is not to blame for that, of course, he kept his cool (as so often in that match) and won the game fair & square. But I dare say that the overall impression of DL doesn't show a player who went a clear and straight line from qualification to ownership of the title. I can't recall a path from not being qualified for the Candidates to becoming the world champion paved with so many lucky on-the-edge situations as DL's road to glory. Moreover, as stated by fabelhaft and others, DL has not exactly an oeuvre of glorious strong tournament victories to put on the weighing scale. He has been and still is - that goes without saying - an extremely strong chessplayer, but world champion by substance? I dare say it: I think not. |
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| Feb-08-24 | | fabelhaft: <True, at the Candidates prior to the match with Nepo, DL was 2nd. Revisiting the score sheet reveals that Nepo clearly won that Candidates with 9.5/14 - i.e. 1.5 points ahead of DL as second. DL, however, was only 0.5 point ahead of Radjabov and Nakamura> That is also his without comparison best tournament result over the last five years. 2020: Candidates 5-6th = (Nepo 1st +3)
2022: Candidates 2nd +2 (Nepo 1st +5)
2023: Tata 11-12th -2 (Giri 1st +4)
2023: Bucharest 8th -1 (Caruana 1st +2)
2024: Tata 9th -1 (Wei Yi 1st +4)
The years before that, 2013-19, he lined up strong results on a high level. His best result in Tata was nine years ago, when +4 was enough to share second with MVL, So and Giri. |
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Feb-08-24
 | | Sally Simpson: Hi Atterdag,
<I can't recall a path from not being qualified for the Candidates to becoming the world champion paved with so many lucky on-the-edge situations as DL's road to glory.> There is not a precedent. Liren was in the right place at the right time and seized his chance. The 2016 finalists Carlsen and Karjakin are primarily to blame, if blame is the correct word. Others would call it fate. Add in the last round game Ding Liren vs Nakamura, 2022 with Nakamura just needing a draw to come second and Nepo blowing a few very good positions in the final and you soon realise this is all part of Caissa's plan and all we can do is sit back and wait to see what else she has planned for us. She moves in mysterious ways. |
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Feb-08-24
| | perfidious: Miracles <do> happen; the latest unsubstantiated content regarding Carlsen and his 'ducking' the youthful talent at Wijk aan Zee has gone. That is most welcome. |
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| Feb-08-24 | | fabelhaft: <Liren was in the right place at the right time and seized his chance. The 2016 finalists Carlsen and Karjakin are primarily to blame, if blame is the correct word. Others would call it fate> He was actually in principle as far from qualifying for a title match in the 2020 Candidates when he finished 5-6th as he was in 2022, i.e. 1.5 point from first place. If not for Carlsen, that is. Ding played also a third Candidates, in 2018. He finished exactly 1.5 point from first also then. |
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Feb-08-24
| | Atterdag: Hi Geoff,
Do you have a shrine in your home where you bring offerings to Caïssa? Burning a few pawns or the likes? :-) I wouldn't call Carlsen's untimely abdication "fate". Unfortunately, we can only imagine, what course the Candidates would have taken, what the result would have been, if the participants had know in advance that they should aim for the first two places. I imagine the outcome would have been quite different. Perhaps not Nepo becoming first, convincing as he was, but there would have been a much more fierce battle for the second place at the end of the tournament. Well well, you may be right, Geoff. It may be Caïssa, who plays a humoresque with us mortals. Wouldn't be the first time. :-) |
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Feb-08-24
 | | Williebob: I've said it elsewhere, but I'll gladly rant again here that Carlsen owes nothing to chess or its fans after ten years of carrying water for FIDE. Of course he seems to have done very well for himself financially, but I would not begrudge that result with even half of the activity and commitment to raising the profile of the game as he has shown.
He had to defend the title one year after winning it. He's had to defend it about every two years since. FIDE hasn't required head-to-head match play for anyone else on the WCC path since before the reunification. We still expect a World Champion to be active between title matches; did Magnus ever take a six month break, even leading up to a title defense?
In short, blame FIDE for any concerns or regrets surrounding the title, because the strongest player in history has had enough of the dirty bunglers. |
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Feb-08-24
| | Williebob: Apologies for any offense caused; Carlsen is clearly one of the strongest players in history, but we've seen forceful arguments for Lasker and Kasparov as the GOAT elsewhere... and I reckon Karpov should be considered second to none as well. |
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Feb-08-24
| | perfidious: The former FIDE system featuring three-year cycles was, in my mind, clearly preferable; the titleholder has seemingly barely finished a gruelling match and has to go through all the preparations again. |
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Feb-08-24
| | Atterdag: The two-year cycle is too strenuous for the champion. For a challenger it's a one time effort - for the champion every other year. I am in for the old three-years cycle as suggested by <perfidious>. I fully understand why Carlsen had enough of it, and he could easily have avoided the mess he caused, if only he had announced his resignation a few months after he had beaten Nepomniachtchi. Good posts, <Williebob>! |
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| Feb-08-24 | | Mississaugan: <MissScarlett: Presently, none.> Thanks for the info, but then, Hmmm. |
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Feb-09-24
| | Sally Simpson: Hi WillieBob,
I agree with your view on Carlsen resigning the title, just disappointed it happened. He resigning and Karjakin being silly were the circumstances that gave Ding his shot at the title. Without those two's actions he would never have been in the candidates or the final. Ding's good play, a touch of luck and here we are. The two year cycle is great for fans, the media and the FIDE coffers, also a great pay day for the players concerned, even the loser with his candidates winnings and W.C. losers prize ends up with 1 million euros. <Apologies for any offense caused?> don't worry about that. Nobody can be or should be offended if you have a valid opinion. |
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| Feb-10-24 | | 1300patzer: <In short, blame FIDE for any concerns or regrets surrounding the title, because the strongest player in history has had enough of the dirty bunglers.> Isn't this the third time that's happened? |
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Feb-10-24
 | | plang: I don't see how it is FIDE's fault that Carlsen prefers other forms of chess to classical. |
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| Feb-10-24 | | EvanTheTerrible: Agreed, Plang. One can argue that the format can be improved, but pleasing one individual player should not be their goal. |
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Feb-11-24
| | Atterdag: From the site of Chess24.com:
<After almost a decade, chess24 will close its doors on January 31.> Now they will <join forces> with Chess.com. I say, it's a pity and a loss. A great uncomplicated site for watching live games. |
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Feb-11-24
| | Sally Simpson: Hi Atterdag,
Chessbomb, Chess24...We are next. Will the last kibitzer to leave please put out the lights. |
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Feb-11-24
 | | chancho: All Good Things (Must) Come To An End... |
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