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Apr-18-08 | | Karpova: <keypusher: he did not want to help Tarrasch, because Tarrasch might win and that would make Tarrasch grander than he already was. Well, why wouldn't the master be equally concerned about making Lasker grander? One possible explanation would be that Tarrasch lived in Germany, while Lasker, at that time, lived in the United States.> I think it's strange that Tarrasch seemingly left out Lasker - Lasker was german and the WC and despite living in the USA still "closer" to Tarrasch nation-wise than someone from the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Did Tarrasch already consider himself to be stronger than Lasker before the WC? I found this one on Lasker-Tarrasch World Championship Match (1908) : <An attempted reconciliation before the match came to nothing, when Tarrasch refused to shake hands, made a stiff little bow, and said: "To you, Herr Lasker, I have only three words to say: Check and mate!"> (source is NM Graeme Cree) But it doesn't make sense because if Tarrasch considered himself to be at least equally strong (and great) as Lasker then Lasker would equally profit from a match win over Tarrasch than the other wayy round and the other master didn't have any motif to let Tarrasch down. So I agree with you. The way Lasker put it (<‘First, Tarrasch wrote that Düsseldorf has an ocean climate, that the sea winds upset him; then, that at the commencement of the match, he had not had his full force, because both Schlechter and Rubinstein failed, as they had promised, to practise with him; then, that I was lucky.>) it sounds as if he was trying to come up with an exccuse at all cost. So the other master needn't have a motif at all and might have had other reasons not to play against Tarrasch (e. g. illness, letters may have get lost, other tournaments, etc.). If Tarrasch considered himself to be that great everyone else would appear to be jealous of him anyway. |
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Apr-18-08 | | whiteshark: commemorative anchor:
http://www.sc-hpboeblingen.de/schac... |
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Apr-19-08 | | brankat: <Karpova> <An attempted reconciliation before the match came to nothing, when Tarrasch refused to shake hands, made a stiff little bow, and said: "To you, Herr Lasker, I have only three words to say: Check and mate!"> Years ago I read a different version of the above, IMO, much more likely one. In one of Vladimir Vukovic's "Chess Herald" ( "Sahovski Glasnik") magazines from the 1920's this anecdote was being related. Apparently, when asked by a group of players and kibitzers something in regards to Dr.Lasker, Tarrasch replied: "To that gentleman I have only TWO words to say, Check, Mate." I believe this happened during Bad Semmering event, 1926. |
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Apr-19-08 | | Karpova: <brankat>
Yes, this sounds more likely. NM Cree doesn't give a source for his version on http://members.aol.com/graemecree/c...It's still strange that Tarrasch seemed to think "the other master" wanted to become greater than Tarrasch (and didn't care about Lasker and even "helped" him). I'm looking forward to <keypusher>'s translation of the training match part. |
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Apr-20-08
 | | keypusher: OK, the notes for Lasker-Tarrasch, game 4 are now up: Tarrasch vs Lasker, 1908 |
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May-04-08
 | | keypusher: Tarrasch's notes to game 5, Lasker vs Tarrasch, 1908, are now posted. |
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May-07-08 | | Karpova: Does anyone have the gamescore of a game Dr. Tarrasch's son - Paul Tarrasch - played against someone called Roll?
Paul Tarrasch seems to have died in 1912 or 1913 in Hamburg and Capablanca gave the gamescore (P. Tarrasch v. Roll) in "Diario de la Marina" (May-13, 1913) and "Capablanca-Magazine" (Oct-31, 1912, pages 198-199) according to Edward Winter. |
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May-07-08
 | | chancho: <Karpova> Tarrasch had 4 daughters and one son (he died heroically in WWI) according to Hannak's book: Emanuel Lasker The Life Of A Chess Master. |
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May-07-08 | | whiteshark: According to http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siegbe...
Tarrasch had 3 sons and 2 daughters.
It is said that Paul (* 15. April 1892 - † 9. September 1912) was very talented, but died 'tragically' at the age of 20 in Hamburg. |
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May-07-08 | | square dance: thats quite the discrepancy between boys and girls. maybe somehow ronaldo is involved in this mixup. |
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May-07-08
 | | chancho: Hannak's book says Tarrasch lost his "only" son in WWI. Either he's mistaken or the Wikipedia article is. At least the 5 children part was right. :-) |
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May-07-08
 | | chancho: Found this link about Tarrasch :http://www.ballo.de/tarrasch_englis... <From his first marriage Tarrasch had five children, three sons and two daughters. Within a short period, 1914-1916, his three sons died. The eldest son, Dr. phil. Fritz Tarrasch, was killed on May 14, 1915, as lieutenant in the 15th Bavarian reserve infantry regiment in the First World War. Tarrasch’s second son committed suicide, while the third son died when run over by a tram in Munich in 1916.> Hannak's "only son" comment in his book may have been meant to say eldest son. |
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May-07-08
 | | chancho: http://www.xs4all.nl/~androom/biogr... |
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May-08-08 | | Karpova: <chancho> <whiteshark>
Thanks!
That's the full passage from "Diario de la Marina" (May-18, 1913) as given by Edward Winter: Jose Raul Capablanca: <We publish a game by Paul Tarrasch, the son of the famous German player. Paul died recently in Hamburg, where I had had the pleasure of knowing him. He was one of my opponents in a simultaneous exhibition and although he lost, his play was notable for certain similarities to that of his father. Perhaps in time he would have taken over from the illustrious doctor in the chess world.> Edward Winter stops there and doesn't show the gamescore (that's understandable) of P. Tarrasch v. Roll but maybe someone knows it anyway. |
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May-08-08
 | | chancho: Tarrasch's eldest son Fritz died in WW1, and the third son died in 1916 run over by a tram. <whiteshark>'s info says Paul died tragically in 1912 and in the info I posted, it says Tarrasch's second son committed suicide. So that must be Paul. I wonder what the circumstances were that lead him to take his own life. |
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May-13-08
 | | keypusher: <Karpova> <Calli> <Anyone else who cares> Here is the passage I referred to in Tarrasch's match book, about his ill-fated training match: <Of course, my own intention was to play a friendly match with a master before the start of the match, assuming that he would agree, with or without an honorarium, the more so that he was a professional chessplayer. <Selbstandverlich hatt ich der Absicht, mich vor Beginn des Wettkampfes einzuspielen und dafur einen befreundeten Meister ins Auge gefasst, von dem ich annahm, dass er meiner Einladung selbstverstandlich – mit oder ohne Honorar, ganz nach Belieben – Folge leisten werde, um so mehr, da es Schachspieler von Beruf ist.> I gave him eight weeks before the start to choose a suitable time meet me. Meanwhile I never knew with certainty whether the match would ever come about, and I was doubtful, as I assumed that the amount demanded by Lasker would not be available. Of course my opponent knew exactly whether the match would take place or not, since this merely depended on how much of a discount to his demands he would accept. For the first time, just fourteen (!) days before the start of the match, I received the assurance that the match would take place, via a telegram from Mr. Schenzel from Dusseldorf, in which he informed me that Lasker had accepted payment <Reugeld> of 2000 marks. Now admittedly, I could have availed myself of a postponement. But I would not do this, so as not to disrupt the arrangements of the German Chess Federation <Schachbundes>. Had the match started later, then the German Chess Federation, whose Congress was by August 22 <when the match began> almost over, would have seen nothing of it, contrary to what had been agreed. But now I quickly telegraphed my chess-friend: Come quick! No answer. Search. He is away. Address unknown. Finally, he is found. Another Telegram. Finally answer. A friendly refusal. That, I had not anticipated, it hit me like a thunderclap. I can very well understand why he did not come. "Tarrasch wins the match quite surely!" so he calculated, "if I warm him up he wins brilliantly. I have no interest in making Tarrasch still greater than he already is." -- I cannot wish him ill, though I would have acted differently; selfishness is so natural and forgivable! It is only that he did not communicate with me until the last moment, when I could no longer find a replacement, other than one other master I invited -- with any honorarium -- but, sadly, the poor man was sick! I was very sorry to hear this, but I later learned that my sympathy was in vain, as his health - as the Napoleon in his famous 29th Bulletin - had never been better. The real reason he did not want to come was that he feared to disadvantage Lasker! Such a __ ___ (the insertion of the main word, in order to remain a pretty parliamentarian, dear readers, I must omit that which I call zoological knowledge.) Now it was too late; without any preparation I had to begin the match, while my opponent wrote in his newspaper: "I now have six weeks of training!"> <For an explanation of the reference to Napoleon's 29th bulletin, see: http://www.napoleon-series.org/rese...; |
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May-13-08
 | | keypusher: This sort of German is much harder to translate than the small stock of nouns, adjectives and verbs that accompany chess notes, so I am sure I made many mistakes. Here is the German: < Selbstverstandlich hatte ich die Absicht, mich vor Beginn des Wettkampfes einzuspielen und dafur einen befruendeten Meister ins Auge gefasst, von dem ich annahm, gass er meiner Einladung selbstverstandlich – mit oder ohne Honorar, ganz nach Belieben – Folge leisten werde, um so mehr, da es Schachspieler von Beruf ist. Ich hatte ihn schon acht wochen vor Beginn zu einer ihm passenden Zeit zu mir einladen lassen. Inzwischen wusste ich aber neimails mit Sicherhet, ob der Wettkampf uberhaupt zustande kommen wurde, ich war vielmehr sehr zweifehaft, da ich annahm, die von Lasker geforderte Summe worde nich zusammenkommen. Selbstverstandlich wusste mein Gegner ganz genau, ob der Wettkampf stattfinden wurde oder nicht, da dies ja lediglich von einer Ermassigung seiner Geldforderung abhing. Erst vierzehn(!) Tage vor Beginn des Wettkampfes erhielt ich die Gewissheit, dass der Wettkampf gesichert sei, und zwar durch ein Telegramm des Herrn Schenzel aus Dusseldorf, in dem er mir mitteilte dass Lasker das Reugeld im Betrage von 2000 M eingezahlt habe. Nun hatte ich freilich einem Aufschub verlangen konnen und sollen. Aber das willte ich nicht, um nicht die Arrangements des Deutschen Schachbundes zu storen. Wenn der Wettkampf spater begonnen hatte, dann hatte doch der Deutsche Schachbund, dessen Kongress am 22. August bereits zu Ende war, nichts mehr davon gehabit, was wider die Abrede gewesen ware. Aber nun schnell an meinen Schachfreund telegraphiert und geschrieben: Kommen Sie schnell! Keine Antwort. Recherchen. Verreist. Adresse unbekannt. Endlich erfahren. Wieder Telegramm. Endlich Antwort. Freundliche Ablenung. Das hatte ich nicht vorausgesehen, es traf mich wie ein Donnerschlag. Ich kann es ihm sehr wohl nachfuhlen, weshalb er nicht gekommen ist. "Tarrasch gewinnt den Wettkampf ganz sicher!" so kalkulierte er, "wenn ich ihm noch einspiele, gewinnt er ihn glazend; ich habe kein Interesse daran, Tarrasch noch grosser zu machen, als er schon ist." -- Ich nehme es ihm nicht ubel, obwohlich anders gehandelt hatte; Egoismus ist so berechtigt und entschuldbar! Nur hatte er es mir nicht erst im letzen Moment mitteilen sollen, wo ich keinen Ersatzmann mehr auftreiben konnte, denn als mich an einen anderen Meister mit meiner Einladung -- bei beliebigem Honorar -- wandte, da -- war der arme Mensch krank! Es tat mir sehr leid, dies zu horen, indes habe ich spater erfahren, dass ich mein Mitleid vergebens verschwendet habe, sein Gesundheit ist -- wie die Napoleons in seinem beruhmten 29. Bulletin -- neimals besser gewesen. Der wirkliche Grund war: er wollte nich kommen, weil er furchtete, damit Lasker zu benachteiligen! So ein __ ___ (die Einfugung des Hauptwortes muss ich, um hubsch parlamentarisch zu bleiben, den geehrten Lesern uberlassen, an deren zoologische Kenntnisse ich appelliere.) Unterdes war es zu spat geworden, ohne mich irgenwie einzuspielen, musste ich in diesen Wettkampf gehen, wahrend mein Gegner in seiner Zeitung hatte schreiben konnen: "Ich habe jetzt noch sechs Wochen, um much zu trainieren!"> You can also look up the afterword from which this selection is taken in Tarrasch's match book starting on p. 112. There is a link in my biography. |
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May-13-08 | | percyblakeney: <I can very well understand why he did not come. "Tarrasch wins the match quite surely!" so he calculated, "if I warm him up he wins brilliantly. I have no interest in making Tarrasch still greater than he already is."> At least he didn't lack belief in himself... |
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May-13-08
 | | keypusher: If the first opponent referred to was really Schlechter, then Tarrasch's arrangements for the training match were remarkably casual. According to OMGP I, Schlechter challenged Lasker to a match in 1908, and Lasker accepted "in principle" pending the outcome of the Tarrasch match. Thus OMGP I says the challenge was made <before> the Lasker-Tarrasch match (though I would welcome confirmation of this). Lasker's acceptance of the challenge would obviously give Schlechter a powerful motivation to see that Lasker won, since in that event Schlechter would be assured a WC match himself, while if Tarrasch won Schlechter would have -- nothing. Under such circumstances, for Tarrasch to "assume" that Schlechter would play a training match with him seems to me carelessness bordering on recklessness. It is also odd that Rubinstein (assuming he really was the second master Tarrasch alluded to) would be so unwilling to disadvantage Lasker, as Tarrasch charges. It would be great if we could dig up any other contemporaneous sources about this curious kerfuffle. |
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May-13-08 | | Karpova: <keypusher>
Thanks! That's interesting to read.
You were correct assuming that he was talking about only one chessplayer to play a training match against (he didn't have enough time to find a replacement). To me it seems as if he was talking about the German Chess Federation only with regards to the WC match against Lasker so the chessplayer he wanted to play a training match against needn't have been involved in the German Chess Federation.
Interesting to note that Tarrasch considered the chessplayer to be a friend of him.Rubinstein faced Tarrasch in 1911 for the first time so I doubt they had met each other often before (and during) 1908 so Schlechter might be more likely. On the other hand, Schlechter was a great sportsman so would he really have been that invidious? |
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May-13-08
 | | keypusher: <Karpova>
Earlier I did think Tarrasch referred to only a single master, but after working on the translation last night I thought this sentence, in the part beginning <denn als mich an einen anderen Meister> is referring to a second player -- Rubinstein, if Lasker is to be believed. But maybe I was right the first time. <Nur hatte er es mir nicht erst im letzen Moment mitteilen sollen, wo ich keinen Ersatzmann mehr auftreiben konnte, denn als mich an einen anderen Meister mit meiner Einladung -- bei beliebigem Honorar -- wandte, da -- war der arme Mensch krank!> |
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May-13-08
 | | keypusher: My link to the story about Napoleon's 29th Bulletin is broken, so let's try again: http://www.napoleon-series.org/rese... |
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May-13-08 | | Karpova: <keypusher>
Yes, first Tarrasch says that the cancellation came to late for him to find a replacemant but the rest sounds as if he was talking about the replacement then and referring to this master when saying that he claimed to be ill.Rubinstein's schedule at that time: Prague (May-18 till June-12) and then Rubinstein didn't play until September again (the triangular tournament in Lodz with Salwe and Marshall). In my opinion, the large gap between these events and the fact that Rubinstein played competitive chess again only at the end of the Lasker-Tarrasch match (Aug-17 till Sep-20) don't really support Tarrasch's notion of a faked illness (if Rubinstein was to be the replacement). |
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May-14-08
 | | keypusher: Tarrasch's notes to Game 10 (Tarrasch vs Lasker, 1908) of the WC match are posted. |
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May-14-08 | | brankat: <Karpova> <keypusher> Excuse my ignorance on this one. The book you are referring to. Is it Dr.Tarrasch's book on 1908 match? If so, did Dr.Lasker also write about the match, either in his magazine or in a book format. Finally, I see You are translating the text, so, is there an English edition of the book available? Thank You. |
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