< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·
|Mar-14-13|| ||LIFE Master AJ: Of course, you are the supreme expert on that ... (errors - esp. those in print?).|
|Mar-14-13|| ||TheFocus: Well, AJ, I have corrected enough of your errors.|
|Mar-15-13|| ||thomastonk: <AJ> Okay, I have seen "only" two editions of Utterberg's book: a paperback from 2012 and a library binding from 2005, both green, but very different. If there is a black one, too: my mistake!|
<Yes, if Chernev said the game was a McDonnell - La Bourdonnais; that is good enough for me.> I would like to explain to you in a friendly way why we won't improve this database or our knowledge on chess history in this way. Former generations had much less opportunities to read primary sources, and hence the authors - most of them no historians - wrote from their memories or filled gaps even by speculation. If we rely on these secondary sources, then we collect all their mistakes, and if we proceed in the same way, we will be someday on Winter's site as another bad example, too. But, nowadays most chess books and magazines from the 19th century can be read online, and so everybody can check the details himself, assumed he is willing to spend some time. Otherwise, cg is a good place to find someone who is willing and has even fun doing this.
<Live and learn.> I'm not a native speaker, but if this has an arrogant undertone, then I dislike it. Please don't forget that you submitted a doubtful game, and that you neither found it here, nor in another database nor in a primary source, and that you didn't knew who William Greenwood Walker is.
|Mar-15-13|| ||LIFE Master AJ: Been involved with chess since before you were born ... forgotten more about chess than you will ever know ...|
|Mar-15-13|| ||TheFocus: <Been involved with chess since before you were born>
Being involved with chess for a long time does not make you an authority. In your case, it has only made you arrogant.|
W.G. Walker was at these McDonnell - La Bourdonnais matches and recorded them for history. What part of that do you not understand? That makes him the expert and Chernev a secondary source.
Try as you might, AJ, YOU cannot rewrite chess history.
|Mar-15-13|| ||TheFocus: And before you dismiss <thomastonk> as a no-nothing, you might want too know that he has been cited in Winter's <Chess Notes> for his historical discoveries.|
As have I.
Have you been cited at Winter's column? Have you added to chess history?
This is the same Winter of whom you said you would accept his authority.
|Mar-15-13|| ||TheFocus: <And before you dismiss <thomastonk> as a no-nothing, you might want too know that he has been cited in Winter's <Chess Notes> for his historical discoveries.
As have I.
Have you been cited at Winter's column? Have you added to chess history?
This is the same Winter of whom you said you would accept his authority.>
I meant to say "know-nothing".
|Mar-15-13|| ||perfidious: <TheFocus> That's, um, nothing-we can all make mistakes and it is hardly worth a mention.|
Here's another vote for <thomastonk>: he's a decent guy and a positive contributor to this site.
At least you were not a member of the Know-Nothing Party!
|Mar-17-13|| ||LIFE Master AJ: And since Chernev is one of my all-time favorite authors, anyone who takes a dig at him will only earn my eternal contempt. |
True story - 1970's, young man hitchhikes to San Fran for a chess tournament. After several nights ... sleeping on a bench and such ... he is taken in by none other than Chernev.
I personally saw ... with my own eyes ... walls covered with chess books and magazines ... he must have had thousands of them. He could go to any one of them and pull out a problem and show it to you.
He lived, ate and breathed chess. So - when some DING-DONG on this site says Chernev was a un-educated puke who made lots of mistakes ... and did not know beans about chess ... he is only showing his own total and complete IGNORANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I will take Chernev's word over yours ... any day today, and twice on Sunday. Is that clear enough for you?
|Mar-17-13|| ||LIFE Master AJ: BTW ... back in the 1930's or so, Chernev was probably in the TOP TEN players in the good, ole USA.|
|Mar-17-13|| ||LIFE Master AJ: And if you need PROOF, I would suggest Soltis's book on the History of the U.S. Championships. (Lots of cross-tables, educate yourself.)|
|Mar-17-13|| ||LIFE Master AJ: And if you want to settle the argument, write Winter. |
ChessBase, USCF, (me) [and many others!!!] consider him to be the final authority on such matters.
If you don't then I would suggest you are <again> just full of hot air ... but we all know that this is par for the course.
|Mar-17-13|| ||TheFocus: Poor <AJ>. Someone points out that you were wrong, even provide evidence, and you respond with insults. Tsk, tsk, tsk.|
I did a search at <Chess Notes>, and not surprisingly, your name doesn't turn up. So much for Winter citing your pages.
My name shows up. <thomastonk>'s does. But not yours. Hmmm. I wonder why?
|Mar-17-13|| ||TheFocus: And, let me point out that <Winter> does not hold Chernev as the most trust-worthy of sources in: http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/....|
|Mar-17-13|| ||Stonehenge: <Been involved with chess since before you were born ... forgotten more about chess than you will ever know ...>|
Highest rating achieved in database: 2495.
A J Goldsby
Highest rating achieved in database: 2283
|Mar-17-13|| ||Benzol: So <thomastonk>'s alterego is Thomas Niessen ?|
I didn't know that. That's what I like about this site, the pleasant revelations that sometimes occur.
|Mar-19-13|| ||LIFE Master AJ: BTW - one more addendum. Although he never personally gave me lessons, I became master probably because of Chernev's books. Chernev's books on "The Most Instructive Games of Chess" and also the one on Capa's best endings ... at one time, I had memorized many of these games.I am sure I would never had become a master, if not for the writings of Chernev.|
|Mar-20-13|| ||LIFE Master AJ: Today, I probably have a couple of thousand books, I don't even try to count them any more. (Something like five bookcases full. Some shelves, have stacks in back and rows in front ... and just about all of them have stacks - that go nearly to the ceiling - on top.) |
However, I can still clearly remember when I only had around 15-20 books in my library. (This was back in the early 1970's.) A few favorites were:
#1.) "The Most Instructive Games of Chess Ever Played." (Chernev)
#2.) "The Complete Chessplayer." (Reinfeld)
#3.) "1000 (best) Short Games of Chess" (Chernev)
#4.) "Capa's Best Endgames," (Chernev).
#5.) "The Chess Companion," (Chernev).
#6.) A Pamphlet on Staunton's Games. (I forgot who did it, I won this as a prize at a chess tournament, I lost it many years ago.)
#7.) A Dover reprint (soft cover, blue)of Paul Morphy's Games.
The rest were all opening books ... ... ... (King's Indian, Dragon, Benoni, two on the Grunfeld, etc.)
At one time, I had literally memorized all the (complete) games in the first two books, several friends (Bruce Andersson and David Kurjan) who knew me in my High School days can attest to this.
|Mar-21-13|| ||LIFE Master AJ: See also a few of my comments on:
McDonnell vs La Bourdonnais, 1835, as they are relevant here.
|May-22-13|| ||brankat: A very fine master Mr.McDonnell.|
|May-22-13|| ||thomastonk: From "The Belfast News Letter", Oct 2, 1835:
"Chess - Death of Mr. M`Donnell - The amateurs of chess in this country have to regret the loss of Alex. M`Donnell, Esq. who died last week at the early age of 37. This gentleman was not only the best chess player in the united kingdom (sic), but the best our country has possessed since Philidor. His talents were not, however, confined to this one pursuit, but appeared equally to grasp and command a variety of subjects, difficult of attainment to ordinary minds. He was the author of several valuable works on political economy, West India commerce, and foreign trade in general, and his style, which was remarkable perspicuous, illuminated his comprehensive views with great felicity. By the Westminster and London Chess clubs, of which he was a member, this melancholy bereavement of their best player is felt as a domestic misfortune. It was Mr. M`Donnell who played the long series of games, amounting to nearly 100, with Mons. de la Bourdonnais, in the Westminster Chess Club, about a year past. Mr. M`Donnell for many years held the high situation of secretary to the West India Committee at the Dock-house in Billiter-square, London, and was the son of Dr. M`Donnell, of Belfast."
|May-22-13|| ||thomastonk: From "The Hull Packet", Oct 2, 1835:
"Chess - The amateurs of chess in this country have to regret the loss of Alexander M`Donnell, Esq., who died last week at the early age of 37, after a short illness. This gentleman was not only the best chess player in the United Kingdom, but the best our country has possessed since Philidor. Indeed Philidor was a Frenchman, though the greater part of his life was spent in England, it may be fairly said that Mr. M`Donnell was the greatest English player upon record."
<Here the text continues about his talents, books etc. like the obituary above.>
"The chess world will not soon forget him, and by the Westminster and London chess clubs, of which he was a member, this unexpected and melancholy bereavement of their best player is felt as a domestic misfortune. It was Mr. M`Donnell, who played the long series of games, amounting to nearly 100, with Mons. de la Bourdonnais, in the Westminster chess club, about a year past. His excellence as a chess-player was associated with a kindly spirit, of the finest quality. He was always ready for the field, not only to play, but to instruct ; and in this respect nothing could exceed the patience with which he would communicate information to the less advanced amateur. To eulogize his skill in the science is needless - he leaves none behind him whose names are worthy of being written on the same page. In his life he was beloved, in his death he is deeply lamented. Mr. M`Donnell for many years held the high situation of secretary of the West India committee at the dock-house in Billiter-square, and was the son of Dr. M`Donnell, of Belfast. He died at his residence in Tavistock-square, and his remains are interred in the cemetery an the Harrow-road."
|May-22-13|| ||KlingonBorgTatar: Albeit for a brief period of time, McDonnell was the world's best player or proto world champion from the time he won the second match from de la Bourdonnais till he lost the third match of their series. He was leading the unfinished sixth and final match when he was taken away from this world and who knows what the result could have been had he lived a few weeks longer. Paul Morphy considers the games of these two gentlemen the finest chess ever and went as far to annotate15 of them. There is a picture of McDonnell in Edward Winter's site.|
|May-22-13|| ||ketchuplover: Pieces out.|
|May-23-13|| ||thomastonk: <KlingonBorgTatar: ... what the result could have been had he lived a few weeks longer.> The 6 matches were played in the summer of 1834, McDonnell died one year later.|
<Paul Morphy considers the games of these two gentlemen the finest chess ever ..> Such statements were often made in the 1840s by earlier authors. Morphy begun the series of commented games with a compliment, and called the games "beautiful models of chess strategy". But prior to that he had already presented his true intention: "True, they have been published before ; but no satisfactory analysis has, to our knowledge, ever been appended to them." His comments do not follow the tradition to praise everything both men played. He clearly distinguished between the good and the bad parts of their games. The opening play, and in particular McDonnell's, is several times harshly criticized. Here is one example: "The great fault to be with M'Donnell's play in all these Sicilian and French openings, as also in the Queen's Gambits, is loss of time, which, against such a powerful antagonist as Labourdonnais, could ill be afforded by any player."
<... and went as far to annotate15 of them.> More than twice times as much: games annotated by Morphy.
<There is a picture of McDonnell in Edward Winter's site.> Mr Winter's feature article entitled "Alexander McDonnell" begins with these words: "No picture of Alexander McDonnell has ever been found, ...". But at the end of that article one can find at least an old picture of his grave.
From your user profile: <"I am a former director of the National Chess Federation of the Philippines. Used to be rated at 2200. Just retired from my chemistry and engineering career but just 'unretired' from chess!> Good to know. I am sure, you'll understand that I don't like to correct sloppy statements in this way. So, with due respect, I would like to ask you to be more careful with the facts. Thanks.
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·