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| Oct-18-10 | | BobCrisp: Russian and German are closely related? That's news to me. But, culturally speaking, wasn't Estonia more closely related to Germany? |
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| Oct-18-10 | | jussu: Russian and German are anything but close, but both are Indo-European languages, Estonian is not. Culturally, yes, Germans are definitely closer than Russians for an Estonian, but Russian influence has also been strong. Before WWII, there were relatively few Russians in Estonia, and the centuries old German noble was still present, even though Estonia was part of the Russian empire before becoming independent during 1917-1920. |
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| Oct-18-10 | | BobCrisp: <Russian and German are anything but close, but both are Indo-European languages, Estonian is not. > Yes, that's what I thought. Your infelicitous choice of words gave me the wrong impression. <Estonia was part of the Russian empire.> I'd forgotten about that! That would rather account for Estonian familiarity with the Russian language. |
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| Oct-18-10 | | Gypsy: http://linguatics.com/indoeuropean_... |
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Oct-18-10
 | | keypusher: <Bob Crisp>
Re Keres' Russian:
<whiteshark: Wolfgang Unzicker was very impressed by Keres ("a chess genius, very cultured and adorable") and they also have been good friends.Unzicker who spoke Russian fluently said that Keres spoke German substantial better than Russian. He could of course communicate in Russian very well, but all his lifelong not fully. Sometimes he used cusses (maternije slowa) without realising it. Someday Keres narrated the following episode about this game: <Botwinnik offered a draw after move five, which he didn't accept. Than after four more moves Botwinnik offered again draw. Keres refused, using a 'strong Russian term'. The surrounding people saw Botwinnik blushing like a peony.> It could maybe that it was a bit immodest, Keres said to Unzicker in his typical way. Many years later Unzicker told this story Vaganjan, quoting Keres's expression, when Rafael had screams of laughter and reported it immediately to Khalifman, who also smirked upon it. I wonder which <maternije slowa> Keres used. Maybe someone could ask Vaganjan or Khalifman sometime or other.> Keres vs Botvinnik, 1948 |
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| Oct-18-10 | | BobCrisp: I rather suspect he called him a <mother-funster>. As for supporting the Wehrmacht, I wouldn't be so sure that, when it came to the invasion of the Soviet Union, a lot of Britons weren't supporting the Germans against the Red Army, even if, technically speaking, they weren't on our side. |
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| Oct-18-10 | | jussu: <Your infelicitous choice of words gave me the wrong impression.> Yes, sorry about that.
<Botwinnik offered a draw after move five, which he didn't accept. Than after four more moves Botwinnik offered again draw. Keres refused, using a 'strong Russian term'. The surrounding people saw Botwinnik blushing like a peony.> Would love to hear what the word was :D. Offering draw four moves after your previous offer was rejected does deserve pretty strong expressions, IMO. |
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Nov-10-10
 | | igiene: Paul Keres has been one of the greatest players of all time and also one of the best annotators |
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Nov-10-10
 | | HeMateMe: The Baltic troops fought against Russia; first in the brutal Russo-Finish War, 1939-40, on the side of the Finns, and then with German troops as the Soviets were driven off the Baltic shelf. What does this say about Keres, giving a simul to Wermacht officers? Hard to say, not enough info is available. Was he coerced? My guess is he made himself known to the new ruling powers, and got some nutritious food or money to buy these things, in return for a quick chess lesson. If Keres is Jewish, then another deadly factor enters the equation. |
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| Nov-10-10 | | drnooo: Had Keres escaped to the west, simply put, say by the late thirties, he just might have been considered one of the ten best ever. Then the war and KGB sent a dark cloud over him. Anyone who
knew him never never NEVER had a bad word about him.
For me he was the best of them all, even more than Tal. Fischer once said of him that Paul can blunder a knight and you would never know it from the blank look on him.
A great man, what chess should be and only too seldom is. |
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| Mar-07-11 | | AnalyzeThis: I loved his book Practical Chess Endings - excellent. |
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Apr-08-11
 | | perfidious: <BUNA: Keres played a number of tournaments under Nazi rule together with Alekhine! It seems only to matter for the latter. In 1936 Lasker played in Moscow, while the show trials where already raging. Would that anything do to our perception of Lasker? I just would like to remind us all of the simple fact, that during that time "things" were rather difficult.> Indeed, Keres played a number of events under the Government General, and the Soviets only allowed Keres to remain free because he agreed not to impede Botvinnik's challenge to Alekhine. As for Lasker, after he was driven into penury by the coming of the Nazi regime, he lived in the Soviet Union for a time, under the aegis of Nikolai Krylenko, though after Krylenko himself became a victim of the purges, Lasker and his wife went to America for the remainder of his life. To stoke the fires, here's a thread I started a while ago on the topic of the greatest player who never won the world championship: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1... |
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| Apr-08-11 | | suenteus po 147: Are there, or were there, any other OTB masters/grandmasters who got their start in, or devoted a lot of time to, correspondence chess like Keres? |
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Apr-08-11
| | perfidious: <suenteus po 147: Are there, or were there, any other OTB masters/grandmasters who got their start in, or devoted a lot of time to, correspondence chess like Keres?> Alekhine played in his youth; here's a nice example: Viakhirev vs Alekhine, 1907. |
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| Apr-08-11 | | suenteus po 147: <perfidious> Thanks! I honestly was unaware of Alekhine's correspondence games. |
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| May-14-11 | | drnooo: the reason that Keres never played for the crown is shrouded in mystery. He participated in eight candidates events and came second in four of them. The turmoil of World War II and the annexation of his small country Estonia by the Soviet Union certainly played a role in keeping him from reaching the very top. Keres had participated in German tournaments during the war, and when the Red Army liberated the country, Soviet authorities planned initially to execute him. Botvinnik interceded by talking to Stalin and Keres was spared. |
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| May-14-11 | | drnooo: that was from chessbase. any wonder how come Keres never beat Botvinnik, yet strangely seemed to do just fine, thnak you against any other world champs |
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| May-14-11 | | MaxxLange: Botvinnik must have had to go through channels, to talk to Stalin. I don't think that the Soviets gave a Red Telephone, that calls direct to The Boss, to their chess champions! If this story is true, and I believe that it is, it reflects well on B. It took guts to stick out your neck, even if you were a model New Soviet Man |
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May-15-11
| | HeMateMe: MB: Joe! What up? it's me, Misha!
Joseph Vissionarovich Stalin: I was just ordering my economics minister to dance a fox trot, with NKVD Beria. The lesser coordinated man will be shot, with my blessings. Why have you interrupted me? MB: well, I have a tough rematch coming up with SlimesLov. Can you help me? JVS: I believe you mean Grandmaster Smyslov. Why do you need my assistance? Is he not the rightful champion? MB: Well...he is. But--I'm your boy! I'm old school! And....Vasily was making fun of your arm. JVS: You pedantic twerp! If you--
MB: I'm serious, Joe! He said "If Stalin ever gets thrown out of the Kremlin, he won't even be able to get a job at Baskin Robbins. You need two good hands to make an ice cream cone! JVS: Did he really...I've never trusted those quiet types....quiet men are thinkers, and thinkers are plotters, and....well, what do you need? MB: Just tell that jingle singer that he needs to drop one game against me, very smoothly. I just need the one extra point. JVS: This one point will remove this man?
MB: Thats it, one bad game from Slimey, and I am once again world champion. JVS: Where did you get this huge, inflated ego of yours? MB: Well, I always attend the May Day parade, and I ALWAYS look closely at the VIP viewing stand and-- JVS: NEVER MIND! I want to get back to marionetting my puppets. Is there more of your inane babble, Misha? MB: Well, just one thing. At the Moscow Central Chess Club, the guys are passing around this photo of Paul Keres. It is a photo of him playing chess with Nazi occupation forces, in Estonia!! JVS: Are you sure of this? Comrade Beria tells me that tricksters can work miracles with Photo Shop. He showed me a photo of Khruschev in a VERY compromising photo with Rosie O'Donnell! MB: Its quite real, glorious leader. But, the chess simul is not the worst of it. After the chess exhibition, the Estonian was challenging the Whermacht officers at Guitar Hero! JVS: I find this disgusting. My entrails are leaking....who won at Guitar Hero? MB: Well...we don't know the results. If--
JVS: I practiced the "Purple Haze" solo for 2 straight weeks, then Molotov
busted out a perfect rendition of Guns & Roses "Welcome to the Jungle" with only 2 days practice! This, at a state dinner in front of foreign diplomats! Comrade Molotov will not be seen for awhile. He is presently manning a lighthouse in Archangel, for the indeterminate future. MB: Very good, sir.
JVS: Save your glib blather. Have you finished that computer that can play chess, yet? MB: Not just yet, glorious leader. It is still a work in progress. JVS: Fine. When it is done, I hope it replaces you!! |
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| May-15-11 | | stanleys: The following combination is from Neistadt's "Chess University of Paul Keres".Unfortunately couldn't find the entire game (correspondance,played in 1933,Keres had white)
click for larger view36.Qxg6+ Kg8 37.Qh7+!! Kxh7 38.Bf7 X |
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| May-15-11 | | BUNA: I was the one that started the useless discussion about Keres and the Wehrmacht on Oct-13-10, and I'm not too happy about that. Because somehow the way I put it I undermined my own intentions:
"I just would like to remind us all of the simple fact, that during that time "things" were rather difficult."
So I didn't want to attack Keres, as instead I wanted to remind us of the fact, that others were attacked because of that in this forum and he was not.
And of couse I was indeed incited seeing pictures of Keres (being forced to) give simuls to ...
So please put my statements where they belong. |
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| May-18-11 | | drnooo: The haunting thing for me about Keres is simple: even later in his career you just almost knew he was playing to show anybody he was their equal if not better....yet could never overstep his bounds. His show was almost that of a judge working for the state, sentencing others to hard labor to keep his job. Job, that's it. His damned job. The only real way he could put food on the table but, no, nothing else Paul. So what did he do. Simply compile one of the best percentages in the history of the game against just about the most formidable set of characters ever to sit down in front of a chessboard. I would estimate overall the combined total of his opposition and what he did against it was the equal of anyone including Karpov and the other K.
I honestly don't know where to place him in the pantheon of the immortals. His career is that clouded. All I do know is that he is slighted even by Kasparov in his mgp book, Karpov in his list of the greats, Fischer never including him etc. He might well have been more talented, a better player in his prime than any of those three. His record is that good, that fraught with danger, tension, doubt: I have stated it before here: the pressure he lived under may well have killed him.
Capas early death may have been genetic, but Keres, I suspect could be traced to the good ole KGB from start to finish.
For me, Keres is easily the saddest history in chess. Deep down probably even the most decent of the lot too, making his stats even more ironic. |
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May-18-11
 | | Dionysius1: Great post, Drnooo! In the midst of computers and elo gradings, I'm glad there are still stories to tell (though sorry for Paul Keres and deeply respectful of him), and that there are still people to feel and tell them. |
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| May-19-11 | | drnooo: I said this Dionysius, more simply, much much much more simply, and with even greater pain, in the kibitzers corner. The pride and sorrow of chess was Paul Keres.
he truly was, you know. He took his beatings like a man. The others, the other Paul, Morphy, showed a broad streak of yellow, became unhinged, and Fischer just about as big a one, also certifiably nuts, and I am not sure at all if either of them had any greater talent. At least Keres record is long and shockingly good. Look at it, throw it up against almost any of the greats and he shines brighter. He was even beating TAL for chrissake in Tals heyday. And the horrible thing is how few really even want to know what he had to endure, unwillingly mind you, not just some flight of Fischer tantrums and unbelievably childish antics. He is what chess should have been, just calmly snipping a pawn here and there, lightly sacking a piece against the likes of Fine and Capa, and when it was over and he had taken the point left them feeling they had been beaten by the best gentleman they had ever sat across from.
One of the few players I truly regret missing out on the honor of telling them how much they meant to me. |
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| May-19-11 | | fab4: Keres should've been a World Champion. |
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