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Apr-03-08 | | Riverbeast: I don't believe in all this 'chessmetrics' and computer evaluations of 'percentage of correct moves' and all this other b.s. A lot of what the computer knows was programmed into it by modern masters..and a lot of what they know was gained from players of the past, including Morphy. When Morphy played he revolutionized chess and brought it to a new level. He was a genius of the game. Comparing him to a 2150 ELO player because the modern 2150 was able to memorize a lot of modern book variations (without understanding the real reason behind them a lot of the time) is the height of absurdity. |
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Apr-03-08 | | nimh: It has little to do with openings. Analysis started from 12th move in each game. |
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Apr-03-08 | | Riverbeast: <Analysis started from 12th move in each game.> So all that proves is that today's 2150 players are able to study games of more modern GMs, and ape their moves...I know modern 1700 players who play indistinguishably from a grandmaster for the first 20 moves or more. Endgame technique has also been codified (and memorized) since Morphy's day. So naturally a lot of players who understand less about chess are going to find more 'correct' moves, just because they've seen them played before |
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Apr-03-08 | | Knight13: Exactly. Compare a 2500 rated 50 year old experienced GM who's been playing chess for over 40 years to Magnus Carlsen who's like 2760+. Which guy knows more about chess? The 2500 GM. But who's the one that actually plays better chess? |
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Apr-03-08 | | krippp: <nimh> From where do you get the complexity values in your analysis? Also, I think the comparison would be much more informative if you linked the % and/or scope of errors to the position's current complexity/difficulty. In the form of a graph, preferably. :) This is because the quality of an opponent's moves directly affect the difficulty of the positions that follow, thus affecting the raw amount and scope of imperfections I'll be making. Consequently, according to this "rule", it seems to follow that if you send me back in time to 1860, my play will have less imperfections than it does today, even though I'm the same. Therefore it's still unfair to compare the raw strength of players without taking into account the raw difficulty they're facing... Especially when doing this to players from different eras, like Steinitz vs. Morphy. |
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Apr-03-08
 | | keypusher: <nimh> <Yes, you are terribly mistaken.
Valid moves represent moves in which one of the evals (suggested by computer or made by player) is within [-2.5 ; 2.5] range. You forgot to scroll down.>
Oops, you're right. Thanks, I will come back for a longer look. |
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Apr-03-08 | | krippp: <Riverbeast> I would rather attack the interpretation of the data rather than the project. Chessmetrics and nimh's analysis have nothing to do with directly estimating creative independence, understanding or greatness. It's the people that hold such delusions. In reality, Chessmetrics estimates dominance. Computer analysis estimates raw strength in a single game, but as explained in my previous post, doesn't yet give a "pure", universal value for it. |
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Apr-03-08
 | | keypusher: <Exactly. Compare a 2500 rated 50 year old experienced GM who's been playing chess for over 40 years to Magnus Carlsen who's like 2760+. Which guy knows more about chess? The 2500 GM.> That's not clear at all. You have to define terms. |
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Apr-03-08 | | nimh: <I know modern 1700 players who play indistinguishably from a grandmaster for the first 20 moves or more. > Until he stumbles upon a new move by an opponent. It is pretty clear he'd quickly go down in flames. <But who's the one that actually plays better chess?> The one who is better at tactics.
<From where do you get the complexity values in your analysis?> To get complexity value, I use following algorithm:
complexity := 0
FOR (depth 2 to 12)
IF (depth > 2) {
IF (previous_best_move NOT EQUAL current_best_move)
complexity |best_move_evaluation
- second_best_move_evaluation|
}
}
previous_best_move := current_best_move
<This is because the quality of an opponent's moves directly affect the difficulty of the positions that follow, thus affecting the raw amount and scope of imperfections I'll be making.> Difficulty of position aka complexity has nothing to do with the quality of previous move.
If trasferred into the past, you'd surely start getting more wins, but the expected error would remain within same limits. |
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Apr-03-08 | | Knight13: <That's not clear at all. You have to define terms.> I was just saying... |
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Apr-04-08 | | krippp: <Difficulty of position aka complexity has nothing to do with the quality of previous move. If trasferred into the past, you'd surely start getting more wins, but the expected error would remain within same limits.> Surely previous moves must affect the difficulty of the positions-to-be. After all, that's what aggressive (=winning) positional play is all about; steering the game towards positions that are problematic to the opponent. For example: You're playing white, and the plan of transferring your Knight to e6 is valid or best.
If you're strong enough to realize it, you'll bring the N to e6, which will, now or later, <most likely give your opponent some tough problems to solve.>
Then again, if you aren't strong enough to see the plan, you most likely won't play it. You may even trade the good knight for a bad bishop, <thus easing your opponent's game.> Also, the existence of this "rule of increasing difficulty" is backed by empirical data. I have played many perfect games. All or most against beginners.
But, make me play against Kasparov and you'll wait a long time before you see me playing a perfect game. And lastly, speaking about Kasparov: I remember a quote by him about Fischer. Something about setting <problems> for his opponents, starting from the very first move.
I also remember a quote by some IM or GM about Kasparov, saying how he creates some 3-4 big <problems> for his opponents per game, and if they solve them, they'll eventually just blunder out of exhaustion... Both of these quotes have been Daily Quotes here on chessgames. |
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Apr-04-08 | | nimh: Best moves are not undoubtedly aggressive. If a move by your opponent makes you some problems, you have probably played incorrectly. <I have played many perfect games. All or most against beginners.> I'd like to see and analyze some of those games if they really are "perfect" as you say.
Copy them to my forum if you (c/d)are. |
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Apr-04-08 | | Knight13: <nimh: Best moves are not undoubtedly aggressive. If a move by your opponent makes you some problems, you have probably played incorrectly.> Very true. In fact, this is what usually happens when you play someone higher rated than you! |
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Apr-04-08 | | krippp: <nimh> I've given some games... Perhaps we should take this discussion/debate to your forum, as well. |
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May-09-08 | | hrvyklly: I've just twigged (after years and years) that Morphy was only 21 when he was regarded as the best player in the World - I don't know why, I always thought he was mid to late twenties when he conquered Europe. World Champ at 21, and without a legion of Soviet trainers... |
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May-09-08 | | Petrosianic: Morphy passed his exams before he was legally old enough to practice law. He was only playing chess to pass the time until he came of age. Unfortunately, in that time, he made it impossible for anyone to think of him as a lawyer... |
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May-09-08 | | hrvyklly: <Petrosianic: Unfortunately, in that time, he made it impossible for anyone to think of him as a lawyer...> Like thinking Kasparov is a politician? ;-) |
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May-09-08 | | Petrosianic: I'd easier belive that Kasparov was Morphy than believe he was a politician. |
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May-12-08 | | rookhouse: Here is a funny spoof on Morphy's 1858 European travels: http://www.rookhouse.com/blog/?p=202 |
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May-16-08 | | Knight13: Chessmetrics Player Profile: Paul Morphy
Born: 1837-Jun
Died: 1884-Jul
Best World Rank: #1 (39 different months between the September 1858 rating list and the November 1861 rating list ) Highest Rating: 2743 on the June 1859 rating list, #1 in world, age 22y0m Best Individual Performance: 2686 in Anderssen-Morphy Match (Paris), 1858, scoring 8/11 (73%) vs 2570-rated opposition |
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May-21-08
 | | BishopBerkeley: The Wikipedia (Wikiquote) page of quotes by and about Paul Morphy gives a good sense of the opinions of other great Chessplayers of Mr. Morphy: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Paul_M...
Hope you have all been in good spirits!
(: ♗ Bishop Berkeley ♗ :)
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May-21-08
 | | BishopBerkeley: "[Paul Morphy] just appeared from nowhere and it was only thirty or forty years later that people understood why he was so dominant. His understanding of chess at [that] point was at least forty years ahead of the rest of the world. For the era in which he lived the kind of chess he played was unbelievable...." Viswanathan Anand quoted here: http://www.rediff.com/millenni/anan... (at which site he lists his "ten greatest chess players") |
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May-25-08 | | nimh: Morphy played only 59 serious games during his career.
+42 =9 -8; winning percentage 78,81%
If we consider games in which the difference of opponents' rating was no higher than 200 points (only games with Harrwitz and Anderssen remain):
+12 =3 -4; percentage 71,05%
And 150 points (Harrwitz drops out):
+7 =2 -2; percentage 72,73%
It is seen that in case of Moprhy his figures are statistically very unreliable. However it would be interesting to see what results we get if we use this method on other great players. |
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May-29-08 | | Augalv: That Crazy Paul Morphy . . .
Over the years I've invested many thousands of hours reading, researching and writing about Paul Morphy, the Chess King. I've paid my dues, been in the trenches, so to speak, gritty dirt under my fingernails, following each and every clue, examining, evaluating and concluding. I've shared a good bit of my findings (500 pages worth), retaining only the unpublishable-for-whatever-reason, hopefully adding to the general knowledge concerning this remarkable man. As a result of all this my antennae tend to quiver slightly at the mere mention of his name. As famous as Morphy was in his day and as well documented as were his activites during his chess period, much of what is known about his private life is second-hand. Some of these sources are reliable, some less so, some nonsense. Determining which are which can often be tricky. Unfortunately, most folks today don't learn about Morphy through even these second-hand sources, but through third and even distant fourth hand sources. Very, very few of these are 100% accurate in aligning what is known to what they present and the great majority have only passing respect for facts. Full story here: http://blog.chess.com/batgirl/that-... |
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May-29-08 | | SatelliteDan: The ability to "think deep" accuratly has no era restriction. Isn't that timeless? Isn't that the most importent factor when determining one's chess ability? Can't the rest be learned? |
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