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| Jul-21-08 |
| Tomlinsky: <firefly3> They are generally accepted to be studies by Greco at the time, not games that were actually played. |
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Jul-21-08
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| keypusher: <firefly3: How do we know these games in the database were actually played by Greco, and not invented by him? It seems to me he got handed the games on a silver platter... and it also seems unlikely that so many miniatures would arise;> What Tomlinsky and apple pi said. I think some of these "games" were just openings analysis, and others may have been real games that he prettied up a little bit. But the fact that so many were minatures doesn't prove that they weren't real; they could represent a small sample of Greco's total games. I am sure not all of Bill Wall's games are minatures... |
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Jul-29-08
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| awalters869: no doubt greco was a great player, but all of his "NN" games smack of being pre-arranged games...that is to say that these NN games never took place and they have the appearance of just being games where greco worked out both sides making the game look as impressive (and beautiful) as possible for white. |
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| Oct-31-08 |
| mjmorri: Greco's games/compositions are amusing to play over, but also quite instructive. I would imagine that quite a few of them have been repeated many times throughout history. |
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| Nov-19-08 |
| VaselineTopLove: Greco never lost a game? Sounds fishy...did the Jesuits he bequeathed his wealth to, cover up all his lost games, like they have been covering up other information over the years ;) (think Da Vinci Code) |
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| Dec-14-08 |
| deadlyking: he maybe never lost a game because the games were notes/calculations of variatons, or he may have been good. also, if he was born around 1600, how could he have played 2 games in 1590? lol |
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Jan-10-09
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| blacksburg: sooo, ummm, is there any record of one of this guy's actual real games? |
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| Jan-10-09 |
| WhiteRook48: "Greco's opponents play in favor of him"
Hmm? His only opponent was NN. |
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Jan-10-09
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| blacksburg: <In 1619, Greco started keeping a notebook of tactics and games, and he took up the custom of giving copies of his manuscripts to his wealthy patrons.> i see no reason why greco would not have also shared his actual games with said patrons. i'm gonna have to assume that greco is an earlier version of Prince Andrey Dadian of Mingrelia until someone proves otherwise. |
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Jan-10-09
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| sleepyirv: <blacksburg> You want people to prove a negative? |
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Jan-10-09
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| blacksburg: <You want people to prove a negative?> no, i just want to see a game of greco vs. an actual person with a name, and i can't find an example of this. did he really not remember or record the name of a single opponent? i find this very hard to believe. |
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Jan-11-09
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| sleepyirv: Why? He might felt it was rude to record their names or didn't feel the need to record the names of a bunch of patzers- only the games mattered. You have good grounds to suspect something but not good enough to call him a liar and demand evidence to the contrary. |
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Jan-11-09
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| blacksburg: if i was a serious chessplayer, and i presented to someone a collection of my best games, i would expect for that person to be interested in who i was playing against. if some dude came up to me, and said "i'm a fabulous chessplayer, look at my games!", and then showed me some brilliant games against anonymous people with no names, i would ask him "who did you play against?" if he replied "sorry, i don't know who i played against, i don't remember any of their names, not a SINGLE one," i would not believe him. i'd just like to see ONE game, greco vs. a person with a name. ONE game. lots of people that have played NN have also played games against people with names. <He might felt it was rude to record their names> how could anyone be so sensitive as to consider it rude for someone to know his name? that doesnt even make sense... |
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| Jan-11-09 |
| Karpova: <blacksburg: f some dude came up to me, and said "i'm a fabulous chessplayer, look at my games!", and then showed me some brilliant games against anonymous people with no names, i would ask him "who did you play against?" if he replied "sorry, i don't know who i played against, i don't remember any of their names, not a SINGLE one," i would not believe him.> Read a bit about the time he lived in and the man himself: http://batgirl.atspace.com/Renplaye... |
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Jan-11-09
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| blacksburg: from the batgirl page -
"While in London, <Greco developed an idea to record entire games> rather than positions for study and inclusion in his manuscripts. He returned to Paris in 1624 where he rewrote his manuscript collection to reflect his new ideas. He then went to Spain and played at the court of Philip IV. There he beat his mentor and the strongest player of the time (other than himself), don Mariano Morano." is it not strange that we have no recorded greco games, yet he developed an idea to record entire games? for example, why would greco not publish one or two of his games with the esteemed don Mariano Morano? (these people have cool freakin names, btw) it just seems strange that we have so many of his "fake" games, and none against real people, while earlier players Ruy Lopez, Lucena, da Cutri, have only very few presumably "real" games, but no "fake" ones. hmmm, i wonder, when Greco presented his manuscripts to his various benefactors, did he present them as real games against real people, or as manufactured tactical examples? once again, karpova comes through with an informative and entertaining link. |
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Jan-11-09
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| blacksburg: maybe i'm ignoring the significance of the 400 year time difference between then and now, i don't know. they didn't even have cell phones then. |
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| Jan-11-09 |
| Karpova: <blacksburg: maybe i'm ignoring the significance of the 400 year time difference between then and now, i don't know.> That's most likely the case. It's almost impossible to compare the chess scene of that time with today's so I'd be reluctant to criticise Greco. Just on a sidenote, Greco beat the best players while people were watching and if anybody still doubted his chess skills he could have beaten him easily also. |
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Jan-11-09
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| blacksburg: "Salvio wrote that Leonardo lost his first two games, and when King Philip was leaving, thinking this wasn't going to be much of a competition, Leonardo begged him to stay and told that him he lost those 2 games on purpose to better display his skill by positioning himself where he had no option but to win the next 3 games (and presumably the match) and, that if he didn't win all three, he'd forfeit his life. Philip II had offered 1,000 scudi bonus to the winner of three consecutive games. He won all three games in a fitting revenge for what he considered a humiliating defeat at Ruy Lopez's hands years before. Philip II was so taken by Leonardo's courage and panache that he not only gave him the money, but also a golden salamader encrusted with jewels, a sable coat and exempted the town of Cutro from taxes for 20 years." heh heh that batgirl website is awesome
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| Jan-21-09 |
| Phantom.Nightmare: Quite funny that recorded in the database Greco scores 100%, though his games were against people who are hardly known. |
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| Mar-16-09 |
| WhiteRook48: what do we find out? |
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| Mar-16-09 |
| WhiteRook48: all his games are against NN! |
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| Mar-28-09 |
| Dredge Rivers: Little known fact:
He and Roman Polanski invented Greco-Roman wrestling! :) |
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Jun-24-09
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| kingscrusher: Excuse me "BatGirl" (SBC)- can you explain this comment a little bit more - I am intrigued: "While searching I came across a funny bit of nonsense worth mentioning. This site, http://www.chesscorner.com/tutorial... , asserts that "The Giuoco Piano is named after an Italian chess player called Gioachino Greco who lived in the 17th century."" Does not Gioachino relate to "Giuoco" !
Does anyone know for sure if Chesscorner is right or wrong about this. I'm currently studying Greco and doing some youtube videos of his games at youtube.com/kingscrusher and am currently interested in his impact. |
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| Jun-24-09 |
| JonathanJ: giuoco means "game" in italian. giuoco piano means "quiet game". |
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Jun-24-09
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| kingscrusher: Yeah, but it would have been very easy for FIDE to rename it from Giuoco Piano to something else - e.g. people that Analysed it.
Here is an analogous precedent to consider:
1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 f5
was originally called the "Greco Counter Gambit".
Maybe it was left as Giuoco Piano in respect of Greco's first name - i.e. his first name "Gioachino". They sound the same. Also maybe also because they already zapped his Greco Counter Gambit - and left him with a rather poxy variation called the "Greco defence" - 1.e4 e4 2.Nf3 Qf6, than more respect was deserving of Greco and the Italians in general for their influence in the evolution of chess ?! The Greco Counter Gambit was later renamed by Fide to be the "Latvian Gambit" because of a lot of later analysis done it by Latvian players. |
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