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Sep-05-10 | | Petrosianic: <The reality was that Spassky was still very strong after losing to Fischer,> That doesn't prove that he didn't suffer a loss of ambition (which really began right after he won the title, not right after he lost it). You could suffer quite a loss of power after a peak like his, and still be quite good. The Soviet Championship was a great result, but one of his few. He was in the Candidates four more times, true. But two of those times he was seeded, and the other two times he was simply gifted a seat in the Candidates (he got in in 1977 by replacing Fischer, he got in in 1985 because France, as the home country was allowed to pick one representative, and they picked him. The only interzonal he played in after losing the title (1976) was a pretty lukewarm performance, which failed to qualify. Telling me that he was still very strong (which he was) doesn't mean that he was motivated. |
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Sep-06-10 | | I play the Fred: <That doesn't prove that he didn't suffer a loss of ambition (which really began right after he won the title, not right after he lost it). You could suffer quite a loss of power after a peak like his, and still be quite good. The Soviet Championship was a great result, but one of his few. He was in the Candidates four more times, true. But two of those times he was seeded, and the other two times he was simply gifted a seat in the Candidates (he got in in 1977 by replacing Fischer, he got in in 1985 because France, as the home country was allowed to pick one representative, and they picked him. The only interzonal he played in after losing the title (1976) was a pretty lukewarm performance, which failed to qualify. Telling me that he was still very strong (which he was) doesn't mean that he was motivated.> Of course you could be right, but how could one know, one way or the other, what Spassky's motivations really were? Your point about his entry into the candidates is well taken, but he wasn't exactly one-and-done in those trips: He had an even score against his combined opponents in the 1974, 1977, and 1980 series, winning 3 matches, losing 2, and drawing, 1. I would think an unmotivated guy who got gifted into the Candidates series would get bounced out in short order. This is all conjecture (which doesn't bother me, just saying) but I think the "unmotivated" tag came from Fischer, who was trying to justify his choice of opponent for 1992. Spassky echoed Fischer's sentiments because 1) disagreeing with Fischer was always a dicey thing to do if you were a friend of his and wanted to stay his friend and 2) Spassky may have felt that he should have done more with his career and signed on to the "unmotivated" label as a way of explaining his results, as in, "I'm really a better player than this." |
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Sep-06-10 | | fab4: @ Petrosianic
Fischer thought world chess was crooked after Curacao , and his non participation had everything to do with this , and nothing to do with his assessment of his own strength. Anybody who knew Fischer in the 60's would tell you that he considered himself the best player in the world when he was 20. He put nobody ahead of himself. His doubts were concerned with the political and organisational aspects of the chess world in the 60's , not his own playing strength. You know as well as I that Fischer was romping away with that '67 interzonal.Had he stayed in it he would've finished at the top of the table. He was on 8.5 / 10 when he departed, 4 rounds not played. His chess was powerful and exuding creativity. If as you state Bent was actually leading at the time of his withdrawal, it's only because Fischer was playing catch up 4 games behind. Anyway this is Boris' page and my admiration for him is immense. But something was missing from his play after 1970..desire. It's as if he's been going through the motions ever since. In the 60's in matchplay he was almost unbeatable. |
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Sep-06-10
 | | HeMateMe: I still think he subconsciously feared Spassky, in the mid 60s. I think that's why Fischer bowed out of zonal play in the mid and late 60s. Eaten alive by paranoia, Boris Spassky was the one person Fischer had not dominated in the decade. Spassky was better than Petrosian, despite losing the WC match in 1963. Somehow, Fischer saw daylight in the early 70s, and decided to play. His intuition was correct; he was a strong enough player to beat the Spassky of 1972. |
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Sep-06-10 | | Everett: <hemateme> I agree. So much depends on mental states and moments in time. Spassky was hungry to gain the championship in the 60's, and this reflected in his results and resiliency. In retrospect, perhaps Fischer's only real threat on his title run was Korchnoi. To end, only a few really thrived being champions. Lasker, alekhine, Karpov and Kasparov. All others seemed to have lost an edge after reaching the top. One can also put Bronstein in this category. |
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Sep-06-10
 | | HeMateMe: Yes, even a huge talent like Kramnik seemed to "let out a long breath" after becoming champ. His results were a little inconsistent (relatively speaking) after beating GK and being recognized as the world champion of chess. I always thought Karpov retained his focus for two good reasons: 1) The shadow of Fischer haunted world chess for 15 years after his disappearance. Karpov had to 'prove' he was worthy, and gobbled up tournament prizes like M&Ms. 2) Money. Living in the deteriorating Soviet Union, it must have been 'every man for himself'. With such an unsure future, play in every event possible, and grab every appearance fee possible. I suppose the Soviet Union was still in the pockets of their players, taking a percentage of foreign currency winnings. I've heard they stole half, and other figures, not sure how much western currency had to kick back to the Party. Karpov seemed to let his hair down a bit, become a more likable fellow, after he travelled more extensively in the West and started getting rich endorseing computers and chess related things. |
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Sep-06-10 | | Everett: <fab4> Fischer did not play the last <twelve> rounds at Sousse, not four as you mention. Also he had yet to meet Larsen, Geller, Gligoric and Hort. |
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Sep-06-10 | | fab4: @ Everett.
Ofcourse I know that. I meant that at the time he withdrew he had 4 games on hold so to speak, which had not been played. I ony stated this because 'Petrosianic' challenged my belief that he withdrew whilst in the lead. Hort and Gligoric were by this time 'meat' to Bobby. Geller and Larsen would've represented tougher tests I agree. It's pretty obvious to most though that Fischer would've won this tournament had he stayed involved. @ HeMateMe
Fischer only got into the '72 cycle by virtue of Benko stepping aside. If this had not have happened he'd have not played in that either, and you would be saying that this was Boris fear too lol. Fact is Fischer considered Tal and Petrosian the main threats in the first half of the 60's, and in the latter he withdrew from Sousse having disagreements with the organisers, nothing to do with Spassky. BTW these ' disagreements' would not happen now, but then Fischer paved the way for improving chess for the modern player in more ways than one. |
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Sep-06-10 | | miguelito: fischer won the interzonal of 1962 ahead of gueller , gligoric , petrosian , stein , portisch, korchnoi with 17.5/22 . that four round in sousse are nothing for bobby . |
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Sep-06-10 | | I play the Fred: <Fact is Fischer considered Tal and Petrosian the main threats in the first half of the 60's> Fischer penned some attention-grabbing articles in the first half of the 60's: "A Bust to the King's Gambit" (1961), "The Russians Have Fixed World Chess" (1962), and one I find relevant to this discussion, "The Ten Greatest Masters in History" (1964). Who were Bobby's ten picks? Alexander Alekhine
Jose Raul Capablanca
Paul Morphy
Samuel Reshevsky
BORIS SPASSKY
Howard Staunton
Wilhelm Steinitz
MIKHAIL TAL
Seigbert Tarrasch
Mikhail Chigorin
Again, this article was written in 1964 - squarely in the first half of the 60's. So if Fischer wasn't worried about Spassky, then why did he make this list and Petrosian did not? |
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Sep-06-10 | | Jim Bartle: Botvinnik must have been happy to see that list. |
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Sep-06-10
 | | HeMateMe: <fab4:> Thats how close it was for Fischer. Only a friendly Benko Gambit allowed Fischer an in. Fischer's success in tournament play in the late 60s must have left him thinking he could win the Candidates matches, and beat Spassky. That he didn't participate in the U.S. Championship (North American Zonal) only shows how close he was to avoiding a potential match with Spassky, in my opinion. I think his not playing in the mid '60s is directly related to a realization that he might be playing a top-of-his-game Spassky, and all the B.S. nitpicking is just a smokescreen to cover up a deeper problem. |
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Sep-06-10 | | Petrosianic: <Of course you could be right, but how could one know, one way or the other, what Spassky's motivations really were? Your point about his entry into the candidates is well taken, but he wasn't exactly one-and-done in those trips: He had an even score against his combined opponents in the 1974, 1977, and 1980 series, winning 3 matches, losing 2, and drawing, 1. I would think an unmotivated guy who got gifted into the Candidates series would get bounced out in short order.> It's hard to know his feelings, of course. But he nearly did get bounced out in 1977. He should have lost to Hort, and only survived because Hort got so entranced by a winning position that he let his flag fall. He did bounce back in the semis though, with a very strong performance against Portisch. And he seemed very motivated in his 1974 match with Byrne. Not just because of the result, but the way he played. That speculative Queen sac in Game 3 was very ambitious. |
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Sep-08-10 | | fab4: @ HeHateMe..
Well obviously I think you're wrong,and we won't agree regarding this. Fischer's self belief was enormous, he put nobody ahead of himself.Nobody. What was a shock to him was the transparent collusion between the Soviets and their overwhelming influence on the political side of the chess world. That's what Fischer was up against and had to fight. Over the board he feared no one.. Much as I admire and respect Spassky, you over estimate his impact upon Fischer's mind and 60's chess in general.Much of this has to do with hindsight because of how Fischer's life panned out later I think. |
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Sep-08-10
 | | HeMateMe: Well, regarding Fischer--the bad machine doesn't KNOW he's a bad machine. I still think the uncertainty of beating Spassky in a long or short match subconsciously fueled Fishcer's <silly walkouts> in zonal events, or his outright refusal to play the US Championship, a zonal itself. At some point, the excuses would fade, and he would have to play Spassky. His record before the '72 match was 2 losses and 3 draws against Spassky. Plenty of fuel to feed a very paranoid persona. <Much as I admire and respect Spassky, you over estimate his impact upon Fischer's mind > In 1992 Fischer chose Spassky for a match, to be played in Croatia and Serbia. Fischer could have received more money and far more respect in the chess world for playing a more contemporary star, like Kasparov or Karpov. But, RJF returns to 1) the opponent in his greatest triumph, and 2) to give another beating to the only player he feared, as a younger man. And, he never played a serious match again. He and Spassky are as psychically intertwined as <Luke and Darth Vader!> |
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Sep-08-10 | | Petrosianic: <Fischer's self belief was enormous, he put nobody ahead of himself.Nobody.> In a way that's true, but he was deathly afraid of "accidents". That was why he quit US Championship play. The close call in 1962 and again in 1965 left him afraid that he might lose his title despite being the best player. <What was a shock to him was the transparent collusion between the Soviets and their overwhelming influence on the political side of the chess world.> Korchnoi was of the opinion that Fischer quietly recanted his charges against him and wasn't big enough to say so. At least he said that they never discussed it but always had good relations afterwards, which they shouldn't have had if Fischer really believed Korchnoi had thrown games to ensure a Fischer defeat. As for the draws, Fischer wasn't afraid of them. Tal and Petrosian had drawn 4 limp games in 1959, and Fischer never said that if this happened again, he couldn't win. The meat of his charges was that Korchnoi had thrown games, but there were problems with that idea even at the time, and several key facts that Fischer left out of his article. There was no evidence of collusion presented. Riverbeast spent 6 months of his life trying to prove this, and failed to present a single piece of evidence other than the popular wisdom that "everybody knows it". What happened at the tournament was certainly a distasteful aspect of modern chess. The leaders drew with each other and focused on the weakies. Not pretty, but not all that unusual either (see the Needleman incident a few years ago for a really offensive example). As for political clout, Fischer had no cause to complain. Despite having no clout at all, he complained, and the entire Candidates system was changed to suit him. And then he refused to play anyway because he wasn't ready to make another attempt. Excuses aside, Fischer the Super-GM must have realized that there were serious deficiencies in his play at Curacao that had to be corrected before making another try for the world title. I don't think they were corrected by 1966, but they certainly were by 1972. |
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Sep-11-10 | | fab4: @ Petrosianic
Ah come on ! Ofcourse there was evidence of collusion at Curacao, and ofcourse it's obvious that there were three players whose games whenever they met always terminated around move 20.Namely Geller, Keres, and Petrosian. This started happening right from the start, so nothing to do with the overall dynamics of the tournament. As for Fischer and his ' deathly accidents' ?! lol He stopped playing in the US championships due to either lack of financial backing and prestige, or lack of competition. To imply he was scared of losing in the US championship is absurd, but does'nt surprise me in this place. @HeMateMe
So you refer to RJF as a 'bad machine'? Ok!
Yuo seem to be confusing his extreme neurosis in his later life with his chess playing days, and lumping them all together. No doubt Fischer was a little e4ccentric in the 50's and 60's, but this was not the extreme paranoia and mental illness we witnessed much later. And many of these ' eccentricities' have explicitly improved chess for the modern GM. Again, you over estimate the significance of his defeats to Spassky, and Spassky in general. |
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Sep-11-10 | | Petrosianic: <fab4> <Ah come on ! Ofcourse there was evidence of collusion at Curacao,> There's evidence that the top players drew with each other and beat up on the weakies. But that's not what Fischer meant by collusion. If he had, he'd have blamed Tal for the 4 quick draws with Petrosian in 1959, which he didn't. You're confusing one objectionable thing with another objectionable thing. <As for Fischer and his ' deathly accidents' ?! lol He stopped playing in the US championships due to either lack of financial backing and prestige, or lack of competition. To imply he was scared of losing in the US championship is absurd,> Are you calling Fischer a liar? Or are you simply unaware of what he said on the matter, and didn't bother to do any research before forming your own opinion? I have read what he said on the matter, and it had nothing to do with the US Championship being too easy to bother playing in. Since the 1969 Championship was a Zonal, that would have been a really idiotic reason not to play in it. Anyway, do some homework, get up to speed, and then we can look at this again. I could post the quotes, but you'd learn more by finding them yourself. |
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Sep-11-10 | | I play the Fred: Here's a hint, fab4: Fischer's letter to Edmonson WRT Fischer's participation in the 1969 US Championship. |
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Sep-13-10 | | fab4: @ Petrosianic
You are quite wrong in interpreting everything Fischer demanded and wanted back then as fear. I'm pretty certain fear was the last thing on his mind regarding the domestic American chess scene. lol As for Curacao, well mate, it's really right before your eyes, the writing is on the can so to speak ... if you can't or don't want to see that, so be it. Keres chess career being adversly influenced by the soviets is well documented. Geller and Petrosian also...And as I said,normal tournament dynamics played no part in these 12/18/15 move draws.They started from the very beginning and just continued,as pre arranged. |
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Sep-13-10 | | ughaibu: The Needleman incident is 100% unoffensive. All players, other than Needleman, only needed draws to qualify!! |
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Sep-20-10 | | Eduardo Bermudez: Take a look for the first ten games between Spassky&Tal !! |
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Sep-20-10 | | I play the Fred: So, fab4 - have you read the letter yet? |
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Sep-21-10 | | fab4: Not yet <Fred>. Provide a link ? Fred, we are still talking about the context of Fischer in the American chess world of the late 60's yes? |
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Sep-21-10 | | I play the Fred: My link is the book Bobby Fischer: Profile of a Prodigy, which I am not near at the moment. Do you own this book? And to your second question, yes. |
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