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Jul-28-08 | | Hesam7: <keypusher: Petrosian was apparently very upset that he had offered a draw to Keres in a favorable position in the last cycle.> It is ironic that the one game Fischer offered as evidence of collusion might be the only competitive game between the pact! |
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Jul-29-08 | | RookFile: But that's the point. It was agreed drawn when one side had a clear advantage. |
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Jul-29-08 | | Hesam7: <RookFile: But that's the point. It was agreed drawn when one side had a clear advantage.> Nobody is disputing that, but Fischer's argument was that this was proof they had arranged this game. |
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Jul-29-08 | | Petrosianic: If anything, it proves the exact opposite, because Fischer omitted key facts when he told the story. For example, he left out the fact that there were only two original moves in the game, and that it had followed this game for the first 12 moves: Keres vs Gurgenidze, 1959
Keres varied on the spot with 13. Qb4, which, though not obvious at first, was a bad move. Fischer left out the fact that Keres had initially refused the draw offer and forced Black to make a move first (Black had offered the draw while he was on the move). If Keres had known how much trouble he was in, he'd have just taken the draw when offered. By the time Black found 14...a5, both players knew White was in trouble, but the draw offer was already on the table and couldn't be retracted. Obviously if the game had been pre-arranged, Black wouldn't have played the strongest move in that position. Play anything else and the final position is more equal. In trying to tell us that Petrosian was too loyal to Keres to win a won game against him, Fischer left out the fact that 3 rounds later, Petrosian was offering to help Benko analyze the adjourned Benko-Keres game. So much for any great loyalty. Of course Fischer's claim of a Mate in 5 if White played 15. Qa3 was completely imaginary. I think Timman tried to rationalize this by saying that there was a possible Mate in 5, but not a forced one, which would be really disingenuous if he'd said that. If you want to make excuses for Fischer here, it would be kinder to assume that somebody at Sports Illustrated misunderstood what he said. You have to wonder how many people spent hours looking at that diagram looking for the Mate in 5 that was supposedly too obvious to need pointing, and failing to find it. I wonder if they ever printed a retraction? I've got the issue in question, but I don't have the next few issues after that. |
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Jul-29-08 | | RookFile: <Petrosianic: In trying to tell us that Petrosian was too loyal to Keres to win a won game against him, Fischer left out the fact that 3 rounds later, Petrosian was offering to help Benko analyze the adjourned Benko-Keres game. So much for any great loyalty. > Well of course. The Russians weren't worried about Benko. He wasn't going anywhere. Why not help Benko if it means <you> might get a shot at the world championship. <Petrosianic: Fischer left out the fact that Keres had initially refused the draw offer and forced Black to make a move first (Black had offered the draw while he was on the move). If Keres had known how much trouble he was in, he'd have just taken the draw when offered. By the time Black found 14...a5, both players knew White was in trouble, but the draw offer was already on the table and couldn't be retracted. > That's not a big deal. Keres was just saying, follow the standard protocol in making your draw offer. <Of course Fischer's claim of a Mate in 5 if White played 15. Qa3 was completely imaginary. I think Timman tried to rationalize this by saying that there was a possible Mate in 5, but not a forced one, which would be really disingenuous if he'd said that. > I agree, there's some bad analysis. But it's sufficient to say that black took a draw in a position with a clear advantage for himself. |
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Jul-29-08 | | Riverbeast: But Fischer was a poor loser! And all the Russians who backed up his accusations were lying! |
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Jul-29-08
 | | keypusher: <Tessie Tura> Yes, I suppose you are right. In the quote you give it looks as if Karpov is saying "proved" where a native English speaker might say "established" or even "admitted." |
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Jul-29-08 | | Riverbeast: When Karpov says 'proven', I think he means it in the sense that there is 'proof beyond a reasonable doubt' Someone else said on these pages that we are not trying to establish a mathematical proof, we are trying to establish innocence or guilt as in a court of law. In a court of law, if you have such strong circumstantial evidence of collusion (as the games themselves), AND the testimony of THREE people who were insiders during the whole situation and very close to the protagonists, you would have only one verdict: GUILTY AS CHARGED This is why I consider those who still deny the collusion to be historical revisionists and desperate fanboys. As far as chess historians and the chess world as a whole is concerned, the final verdict re: collusion at Curacao has been known and accepted for decades. |
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Jul-29-08
 | | keypusher: <petrosianic>
<This, by the way, is the answer to the trivia question that I tossed out a few days ago. Which Soviet player once motioned for Fischer to be added to a Candidates series that he hadn't qualified for?It was Bronstein. After Bronstein qualified but was excluded from the 1965 Candidates, he petitioned FIDE to expand the Candidates from 8 to 16, and include himself, Fischer and Stein, among others. They turned it down and stuck with 8.> Very interesting, thanks. My guesses were way off.
It's funny, I've heard that Botvinnik was to blame for the limit on participants from one country, but of course he lost the title in 1963. Unfortunately, policies (especially bad ones) often outlive their rationales. |
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Jul-29-08 | | Tessie Tura: <I've heard that Botvinnik was to blame for the limit on participants from one country, but of course he lost the title in 1963. Unfortunately, policies (especially bad ones) often outlive their rationales.> I think Bronstein mentioned that in <The Sorcerer's Apprentice>. The "rationale" was that Botvinnik would face fewer of the toughest players that way. I don't know if the story is true or not. (I think <Petrosianic> posted on this subject quite recently, but can't remember on which page.) |
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Jul-29-08 | | Hesam7: <Riverbeast: But Fischer was a poor loser! And all the Russians who backed up his accusations were lying!> I do not think that the Russians were lying. Fischer's complaint was legitimate but that does not explain his poor results, as Karpov says, people do not win tournaments by drawing. I think Fischer was simply not in the same class as the top trio. Here are the results: Petrosian 2.5 - 1.5 Fischer
Geller 2.5 - 1.5 Fischer
Keres 2.0 - 2.0 Fischer
And his results could have been much worse, in the 4th round robin Fischer had lost positions against Geller and Petrosian (Fischer vs Petrosian, 1962, Fischer vs Geller, 1962) but managed to beat Geller and draw Petrosian. |
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Jul-29-08 | | RookFile: I think 'poor results' is a little over the top. Fischer scored 8 wins and 7 losses against the world's best, with a multitude of draws, at the age of 19. He finished ahead of Korchnoi, Tal, Benko, and Filip. That's not poor. |
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Jul-29-08 | | Hesam7: <RookFile: I think 'poor results' is a little over the top. Fischer scored 8 wins and 7 losses against the world's best, with a multitude of draws, at the age of 19. He finished ahead of Korchnoi, Tal, Benko, and Filip. That's not poor.> For somebody who claimed that he was the true challenger and the best player around that was poor. Also I would not count Tal (during that period) or Filip (Fischer scored 3 of his 8 wins against these two) among "the world's best". It was a shame that the number of Soviet players was restricted just imagine the tournament with Spassky instead of Filip! And for the record Fischer also lost his mini-match to Korchnoi. |
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Jul-29-08 | | Hesam7: <RookFile> to add insult to the injury Fischer was also lost (or was very close to losing) in his only win against Korchnoi: Korchnoi vs Fischer, 1962 (31.Qb2+ gives White a big advantage). |
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Jul-29-08 | | Hesam7: <RookFile> this is another game from Curacao where Fischer was lost yet came back to win: Fischer vs Benko, 1962. |
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Jul-30-08 | | RookFile: It's kind of silly to talk about what could have been, instead of what the actual game results were. Tal would say in the year that he became world champion that he had a lost postion in a multitude of games that he went onto win. According to your logic, you should go out and find games that Fischer had a clear advantage in and didn't convert, and draws that he didn't hold, to give the full picture. Whether it's Lasker, Tal, Fischer, or anybody else, the only thing that matters at the the end of the day is what result you're writing into the crosstable. |
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Jul-30-08 | | Hesam7: <RookFile> my point is that the number of losing positions you get in a tournament reflects on the quality of your play. In that respect having so many lost positions shows that Fischer's play was poor. Compare this to Petrosian who in the same tournament did not lose a single game and only had problems in one game against Benko. |
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Jul-30-08 | | Petrosianic: <my point is that the number of losing positions you get in a tournament reflects on the quality of your play. In that respect having so many lost positions shows that Fischer's play was poor.> Fischer lost 7 games in this tournament. How many lost positions did he get into but manage to save? At least three: the game with Benko, the second cycle game with Korchnoi, and the 4th cycle game with Geller. Nothing else leaps immediately to mind (his 4th cycle games with Keres and Petrosian were very difficult, but I'm not sure if he was provably lost in either one). Even so, 10 lost positions in 27 rounds is an awful lot to base an "I shoulda won" campaign around. Anybody who finds that performance comparable to Fischer 1972 isn't looking very hard. His bad form continued into his next event, the Varna Olympiad, where he only scored 50% (+3-3=5) in the Finals. |
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Jul-30-08 | | euripides: Actually, 1972 was tougher for him than this suggests. He lost two (not including the default). Some annotators have also thought he was worse or at least in considerable danger in the 4th (worse throughout the middlegame), 7th (he was mostly better but both players missed a chance for Spassky late in the game), 9th (where Spassky ducked the thematic d5), 10th (great game but I think Spassky missed a chance to simplify with advantage), 14th (a clear pawn down before Spassky's blunder), 15th (a pawn down with debatable compensation), 17th (Spassky apparently accidentally allowed a repetition) and 18th games (after pressing too hard Fischer was in real danger though maybe never lost). He also faced down potentially ferocious attacks in the 13th and 19th. No wonder he said Spassky was the toughest opponent he faced in that cycle. But of course there is a big, big difference between being worse at some stage and losing. Fischer in 1972 was very hard to put away. |
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Jul-30-08 | | Petrosianic: <17th (Spassky apparently accidentally allowed a repetition)> I don't think there was anything accidental about it. He couldn't find anything, and so allowed a repetition rather than lower himself to offer a draw. There were several creative drawing methods in that match. Which was the game (Game 20? maybe) where Fischer asked the referee to check for repetition (in a position where there clearly was none), and while he was doing that, Spassky signed the scoresheets? I think I've heard (not 100% positive about that) that Fischer never offered a draw throughout the match. |
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Jul-30-08 | | euripides: <Pet> yes, I think game 20 was the spurious claim - I think there had been a triple repetition but with different sides to move. |
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Aug-02-08 | | arsen387: QOTD
<He had a funny habit: while his opponent was pondering a move, he would now and then brush off specks of dust, real or imaginary, from the opponent's side of the chessboard. Eventually, Petrosian broke him of the habit by giving him a rap on the fingers. Alexander Koblents >
Interesting ho was that 'He'? |
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Aug-04-08 | | HannibalSchlecter: That 'He' was the great Bobby Fischer.
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Aug-05-08 | | arsen387: <HannibalSchlecter: That 'He' was the great Bobby Fischer> thanks for the info. Irritating habit, I think :) |
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Aug-31-08 | | myschkin: . . .
"The Fabulous 70s: 3 Chess People and a Beautiful Woman … Plus, Petrosian Tidbits" http://nezhmet.wordpress.com/2008/0... (by Mark Ginsburg) |
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