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Nov-05-05
 | | ray keene: overprotection works in certain types of opening position- a very good example is the kings indian attack-not all variations of course-but when it works it works spectacularly-for example keene v basman bognor 1967 here on chessgames--i perceived e5 to be the overprotection point and massed bnqr in support of it-when the storm burst -just as nimzo predicted-the overprotecting units developed fantastic energy. |
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Nov-05-05
 | | ray keene: for more on the potential of overprotection see bronstein -botvinnik kings indian attack-draw-moscow 1951 but i think bronstein cd have sac'd an overprotecting piece and won!! |
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Nov-05-05
 | | keypusher: I feel foolish, arguing with <gypsy> + a grandmaster. But <Gypsy>, your mathematical illustration basically relies for its effect on the fact that you don't count pieces until they are overprotecting a point, correct? But that doesn't seem accurate. To take a stereotyped example, if I have a knight on f3, a bishop on d3 and a queen on d1, they are not overprotecting anything, but they can certainly work together to attack the enemy king. It seems that the K.I. reversed positions where the white pawn winds up on e5 are sort of the linear descendents of the French advance positions in which Nimzowitsch let d4 go and overprotected e5. If they are the leading examples of the theory overprotection would seem to be of limited application. <Ray Keene>, thanks for pointing me to your fine win over Basman and the Bronstein-Botvinnik game (which <KingG> has analyzed with a computer -- it seems your suggested piece sacrifice is indeed sound). But is the Basman game really an example of overprotection? It seemed to me that you had to line up all those pieces to protect e5 because he was lining up all his to attack your pawn there. |
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Nov-06-05
 | | ray keene: indeed -but if i had not played f4 to f5 then the e5 pawn wd have required no further protection.i deliberately removed the pawn cover on e5 in order that the pieces could group around in advance of the attack. i agree-overprotection is of limited application-most of nimzos examples were-in fact- in the e5 french.we see here how a strategic insight from long ago gradually changes into a concrete theoretical variation-ie the theory of overprotection has justified itself by becoming the main strategic and theoretical theme of various lines
of the kings indian attack. |
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Nov-06-05
 | | keypusher: Thanks, <Ray keene>, I did not think of f5 when I said what I said about overprotection. Keene-Basman is an amazing game, remarkable that black has no defense after Rxd7 Qxd7 Bh6. |
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Nov-06-05
 | | ray keene: see also botvinnik v uhlmann alekhine memorial moscow 1956 for a further example of nimzowitschian overprotection leading to a glorious outburst of energy-also with f4 -f5 as a prelim. |
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Nov-06-05
 | | Ron: Concerning Nimzowitch on over-protection--do not forget that Nimzowitch also wrote about "the career of the over-protector." I take that to mean that after over protection, one or more of those pieces then can go on to do other things. |
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Nov-07-05
 | | WTHarvey: Happy birthday, Aron !
Here are some puzzles from his games: http://www.wtharvey.com/nimz.html |
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Nov-07-05
 | | chancho: It must have been utterly weird for Nimzowitsch's opponents to watch him make a move, get up, then go to a corner and stand on his head. |
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Nov-07-05
 | | Gypsy: <keypusher: I feel foolish, arguing ... But your mathematical illustration basically relies for its effect on the fact that you don't count pieces until they are overprotecting a point, correct?> (1) Never feel foolish keeping me honest! (2) Actually it goes the other way around, I do not count piecess that are too bussy -- 'nailed down' it may feel -- on the account of protecting some vital point. It is only when this point is overprotected that the over-protecting piecess regain some measure of freedom to tend other tasks. I'll concstruct a schematic example shortly. First, however, I want to give an example of the transfrom from 'overprotection' into 'laviering'. I found a fine example in Dvoretsky's "Positional Play" (the red-cover book). In the chapter on 'Prophylactic thinking, The Opening', Dvoretsky gives the game Botvinnik vs Keres, 1952 as an example of great prophylatic play by Botvinnik. But the game also trikes me as an instructive example of the connections that often surface between these two Nimzo's notions. |
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Nov-07-05 | | RookFile: By the way, Steinitz was piling up
on e5 long before Nimzo was. |
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Nov-07-05
 | | Gypsy: <RookFile> You are absolutely right that Steinitz preceded Nimzo in using this tacking (laviering) accross a central square. Perhaps he was the first. Btw, I do appreciate your comments on Capa. (Was away for couple of days, so could not say that sooner.) |
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Nov-07-05
 | | Gypsy: <keypusher> Maybe I managed to construct a concrete example of the added flexibility effect that overprotection sometimes give. I tried to stay in the ralm of tactics and I do hope I did not make a hash of things. Condider the following two diagrams. It is Black to move, and the diagrams differ only in the position of White knight.  click for larger view click for larger viewAt first glance, I would actually prefer the former position (as White), because the d3 pawn is for taking in the latter and overall the knight just seems to be in a way on d2. But, the former position is a loss for White while the latter is a win! The difference is that in the latter position the square e4 is over-protected by that awkwardly looking knight on d2, and that turns critical, because after <1...Rxc4 2.Nxc4 Rxc4! 3.dxc4 Qe4 4.f3 Qe3+ 5.Kh1 Qf2 ...> White can not avoid being check-mated! Now the difference between the two positions comes to light if White takes by the d3-pawn first: After <1...Rxc4 2.dxc4>, in the former position Black <3.Qe4...> once again instigates the mating process, while in the latter position the all important e4-square is still protected by the (formally over-protecting) knight. The punchline is this: In the first position, the pawn on d3 can be fatally overloaded; in the second position, because of the overprotection of e4, it can not. The added extra resource is that in the second position after <1...Rxc4> the <2.dxc4! Rxc4 3.Nxc4 Qe4 4.Ne3...> is possible (and winning). --
As things are, in the first diagram <1...Rxc4 2.Nxc4 Rxc4 ...> shall win for Black because White can not save the d-file pawns. In the second diagram, Black probably does not have enough compensation after <1...Qxd3 2.Rxc7 Rxc7 3.Nf1...>. But all that has little to do with the discussion about over-protectin. |
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Nov-07-05
 | | Ron: <Gypsy> That is one of the most though provoking chess posts I have ever seen. How long did you think about it? |
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Nov-07-05
 | | Gypsy: Thank you <Ron>. It took me a couple of hours to transform an abstract and schematic understanding of the notion into this concrete pair of positions. In abstract, however, I have been thinking about it for a while. Judging from your insights about over-protector's afterlife and such, so have you. |
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Nov-10-05 | | RookFile: Well, you've obviously worked hard on
this. Now, let's take a step back.
Nimzo is talking about all this high
fallutin' overprotection stuff.
A guy like Capablanca approaches the
two positions you mentioned without
any preconcieved notions. His fast
"sight of the board" always him to
quickly calculate the outcome of both
positions. He makes the right move,
and it's end of story.
Moral - Nimzo just had too much 'overhead' going on in his chess
thinking. Modern chess is a dynamic
game, where concrete calculation is
paramount. You can't play chess on
autopilot with a system. |
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Nov-10-05 | | Chesschatology: <Rookfile> Great advice- IF you happen to be called J.R. Capablanca.
For those not blessed with a "sight of the board" (i.e. natural, ineffable, talent) that tells us everything we need to know, however, it helps to have a system to guide you! |
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Nov-10-05 | | RookFile: Kotov's Think Like a Grandmaster is
the only system you need. Start
calculating... |
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Nov-10-05
 | | chancho: <Rookfile> lol, good one. |
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Nov-10-05
 | | Gypsy: <RookFile> You bring up an interesting point and one that is dear to my heart: that of diferent styles/methods of thinking. Forgive me if I use your post as an anchor for a short discourse on the topic. (And do keep in mind that this is just "world according to Gypsy"; that is, it's mostly just my speculation.) <His fast "sight of the board" always him to quickly calculate the outcome of both positions. He makes the right move, and it's end of story. > This is very true. But it should not be interpretted automatically as Capa being a calculating machine as, say, Korchnoi. From what I have been able to piece together from writings of Kotov, Botvinnik, Bronstein -- and from Capa's "Last Lectures" -- Capablanca actually had a peculiar and specific style of thinking, quite unique till his time (with a possible exception of Paul Morphy). Capa thought about positions in structural "schemes". (That is the term Aagaard uses.) That is what helped Capa deeply assess positions in such lightning speeds. He broke down the problem into two parts, and he was brilliant in solving both. First he quickly assessed the structure of the position and determined what needs to be done : he set up a schema to achieve. Second he used his phenomenal tactical vision to determine the sequence of moves, sometimes a combination but usually a maneuver, that quickly got the position into his desired schema. Then repeat, and again. Capa's structural understanding of the game was head and shoulders above most of his era. But, I do believe, this understanding was also condensed into a type of his system. It is from this that he readily conjured up his schemas. See, at their native levels, the systems of Tarrasch, Nimzo, or Capablaca are a form of some high level understanding of what what chess is about. This then gets translated via a trail of levels of doctrine, high-level policy, concrete policy, rules of thumb, strategy, down to concrete tactics and maneuvers. Not all players work like that. Some function mostly at the concrete levels (Korchnoi, Duras) some are concrete planners and strategists (Botvinnik, Rubinstein), some work from the rules of thumb, and some are philosophers of the higher ralms. ---
What I see people objecting w.r. to Tarrasch and Nimzo is that, for us, they boiled their high level understanding of the game into a bunch of rules of thumb. These rules were designed to give us, their readers, a head start. But we now take these rules as gospel of proper play and, unlike their originators, we do not understand the source of these rules and therefore we do readily know when we can or even need to break them. Incidentally, Capa's system never realy get boiled down to a set of rules of thumb, as much as Nimzo's system or Tarrasch's system had, because Capa was not the teacher they were. |
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Nov-10-05
 | | Gypsy: < RookFile: Kotov's Think Like a Grandmaster is the only system you need. Start calculating...> Lol. A good one. But I like his "Play like GM" better. :-) |
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Nov-11-05 | | Chesschatology: <Rookfile>
Very macho sounding!
The idea that chess is all about calculation has become increasingly popular recently, partly, I think, as a result of Hydra et al. For argument’s sake let’s say that Adams achieved a strength of play roughly 500 ELO points lower than Hydra (surely an exaggeration). He did this calculating a maximum of 5 positions a second. Hydra does several tens of millions. So his efficiency in assessing positions, choosing candidate moves and “pruning the tree of analysis” must be literally hundreds of thousands of times better (Kotov’s book only really addresses (c)- all he says about candidates is “look at as many as possible”). Where does this come from? Positional understanding, logic and reasoning. So don’t burn My System et al until you have a hundred or so parallel CPUs wired into your skull. |
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Nov-11-05
 | | keypusher: <Gypsy> Thanks for the time and trouble you took to put together that demonstration for me. For what it’s worth, Fritz 8 agrees with you that black does not get enough compensation in your second diagram after 1…Qxd3. I am still not sure what you are illustrating is overprotection per se. As I understand it, Nimzowitsch believed in overprotecting key strategic points before the opposition had made any specific tactical threats, with the payoff being (i) the enemy’s future plans would be frustrated and (ii) the pieces dedicated to overprotection “would find themselves well-placed in every respect.” However, in your positions white has clear and glaring weaknesses on the light-squared diagonals around his king. Black has occupied one of those diagonals with his bishop and threatens to occupy the other by moving his queen to e4. Also, in your second diagram e4 might be formally overprotected, but because of the possiblity of …Rxc4 it is really only protected once, by the knight. In short, black has an immediate, dangerous tactical threat. If I had this position I would think of it, not in terms of overprotection, but in terms of defense of the k-side light squares. (Or even simpler: how do I avoid getting mated?) To illustrate, let’s go back a half move from your diagram, put the white knight on b1 and rook on a1, and make it white’s turn to move. (I realize you did not devise your two positions—which must have been a huge amount of work—to be analyzed in this way. But surely the true test of a doctrine like overprotection is how it helps us to plan in a game.)  click for larger viewIf I had to choose between 1 Nd2 and 1 Na3, I would certainly prefer the former, with the idea of trying to cover the weak squares around the king, in particular f3 and e4. But note that I could ignore overprotection altogether and simply play 1 Rxc7, removing the threat to destroy the guard of e4. What I would probably do in the diagrammed position is play 1 Nc3, guarding e4, developing a piece, clearing the back rank and hoping to follow up with perhaps Rh4 and Qh5. Note that none of these thoughts are based on overprotection. Thank you again for a very intelligent and stimulating post. |
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Nov-11-05 | | RookFile: <Chesschatology> - for those of us
who do not have the talent of Nimzo
or Capa, I still submit we'll do better playing like Capa. Why? The emphasis on natural play and concrete
calculation will take you further than
following an abstract theory not completetly understood, that gets you
mated in 3. |
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Nov-11-05 | | KingG: <RookFile> I think Capa probably did less calculation than you think. Just because he didn't express his way of thinking in writing doesn't mean he didn't have a method. I'm willing to bet that Alekhine did more calculation than Capa. Capablanca was much more of a positional player than a tactical one, so probably the majority of the time he spent calculating was on his opponents threats. |
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