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May-17-11
 | | tamar: <perfidious> Knaak gives solid notes to the games he does annotate, but nothing extra. He does not come to grips why Morphy was so dominant in his time, noting that he could not find any great difference in combinative ability, endgame play, or understanding of position play that set him apart from players of this time. His insight that Morphy always improved in matches I found valuable, but he can not explain it further, except that Morphy had better openings, and he speculates that perhaps his adversaries were affected by his rapid rate of play. |
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May-17-11 | | Calli: <tamar> Doesn't make too much sense to me. "Morphy had better openings" because he analysed them himself and saw the improvements. Sort of indicates he was better tactically and probably positionally than the rest. |
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May-17-11 | | Pygeum Lycopene: <tamar> No, it was a different account, mentioning Harrwitz laughing and patting Paul on the head after one of his wins. i'm sure it was a link on this board, can't find it now. sorry. anyway... <The case for Morphy against Van Wely is that Morphy belongs to a different order of player than Van Wely.> You knew what i was trying to get at more than i did. thanks. |
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May-18-11
 | | keypusher: <Pygeum>
Is this it?
<Throughout the game the latter displayed an attitude of amused contempt. When Morphy resigned, he rose from his chair, took Morphy’s hand and felt his pulse. Then he said laughingly to the crowd: "Well, this is most astonishing. His pulse does not beat any faster than if he had won the game!"> |
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May-18-11 | | MaxxLange: That doesn't even make sense. Does your pulse rate go up when you lose a game? I don't think mine does. What a jerk. At least he got hustled into playing a match, though. |
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May-18-11 | | ARubinstein: <But, for the sake of us Morphy fans, you could stop writing how he would lose to IMs too, lol.> Yeah, I'll stop harping on it. Anyway I consider myself a Morphy fan even if I don't come across as one in these debates. I love his games and I'm astounded by how good he was in a time with relatively little chess knowledge. I just don't believe it's possible to fairly compare players across so many generations. Morphy was clearly a better player *for his time* than Van Wely (or most other GMs) is for his time, and of course Morphy is a much more important figure in chess history. For me that's enough. Unfortunately Morphy's career was all too short to support conclusions such as Fischer's, and the popularity and viability of professional chess was still in its infancy. Thanks for the complete Smyslov quote. I can't deny that some of the greatest legends of chess history seem to suggest that Morphy was already on the level of top players from a century later. Of all the praise perhaps Botvinnik's comment about Morphy's genius for *open games* is what I can agree with the most: "To this day Morphy is an unsurpassed master of the open games. Just how great was his significance is evident from the fact that after Morphy nothing substantially new has been created in this field." -- Botvinnik |
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May-20-11 | | SmotheredKing: I think one argument people sometimes take into account is the lack of time controls during this time. Morphy was known for playing an exceptionally fast game as compared to his opponents, but none of them had to worry about time trouble. This brings us to an interesting if entirely hypothetical question: how would Morphy fare in blitz play?? (given some basic opening book against modern systems) |
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May-22-11 | | Everett: Well, in his day obviously he would have crushed everyone else in blitz. Actually, did any of his opponents also play rapidly, like Barnes? |
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Jun-11-11
 | | perfidious: Forgive me if this excerpt from another page has already been transcribed here, but I thought it most interesting with regard to some of the great champions of the past: <OJC: An interesting take on the players from different eras problem:
< From every point of view therefore the modern player is far better equipped than the older players; he has a wider range of understanding of different types of strategy, he knows far more about the openings, and he is better equipped technically. Can we then say with confidence that Botvinnik, Smyslov, or Tal would beat any former champion?The best way to try to answer this is not as is usually done, to ask how Morphy would do if he were transplanted to the present, when the issue is confused by the feeling that Morphy would rapidly absorb our present knowledge. It is rather to ask how Tal (or Botvinnik or Smyslov) would do if he were transplanted to the past. I personally can feel no doubt at all that any of these three would in these circumstances have demolished with comparative ease all players before Lasker: their advantage in knowledge and technique would have been decisive. With Lasker, however, I must confess to doubt. This extraordinary genius, with his indomitable fighting spirit, resourcefulness, and psychological insight into his opponents' weaknesses, coped without any apparent difficulty with all the technical innovations in his lifetime - even when he was far past the normal prime of life for a chess-player. The Reti school which he first met when in his middle fifties caused him no trouble at all. I believe his knowledge was near enough to that of the moderns for his genius to carry him through. With somewhat less confidence I belive the same about Capablanca and Alekhine. To sum up, my views are as follows. The general level of play among the great masters is far higher today than ever before, and no player before Lasker had a combination of knowledge and genius sufficient to enable him to compete on level terms with the moderns. With Lasker, Capablanca, and Alekhine, however, a level was reached which has not yet been surpassed - though it has been equalled by the 1948 Botvinnik and may again be equalled by (or even surpassed?) by Tal or Fischer. If this view is wrong, then it errs in overrating the older players. I rather hope it is wrong; I don't like to think that chess has been played as well as it ever can be. > - Excerpt from: "Ancient and Modern" (network three radio magazine broadcast), C.H. O'D. Alexander, 1960, presented as an essay in the interesting collection "Chess Treasury of the Air" ed. T. Tiller.> |
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Jun-16-11 | | TheFocus: Author and historian Nick Pope discovers unknown Paul Morphy game!! http://www.chessarch.com/library/00... |
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Jun-16-11 | | parisattack: A great find! The website, BTW, is a treasure trove for chess history. |
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Jun-16-11 | | TheFocus: <parisattack> I agree. After being dormant for so long, it is good to see www.chessarch.com getting active again. Nick Pope has been posting in my Forum. |
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Jun-16-11 | | parisattack: As you know <TheFocus> chess research - while fun and rewarding - is real work. A great deal of research may go into what *looks* like a minor find. Ergo, a small two or three paragraph report may well have involved weeks or even months of hunting, sorting and sifting. |
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Jun-16-11 | | TheFocus: And when you do make a find, it can be such a rush!
One day, I had been sitting viewing microfilm in the library for hours. And then, boom!, there was my first major discovery of previously unknown material. When I realized what I had found, I just sat there for several minutes staring at the screen. My head felt foggy, tunnel vision set in, and I could hear nothing but my own breathing. My body felt drained, or, like I had been punched in the gut. And then the world slowly came back, and I realized that I had actually discovered something everyone else had missed. It had sat in plain view for over 50 years. Then, you know that all the work was worth it. |
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Jun-16-11 | | fab4: <TheFocus:>
What exactly are you on about ?
Just be more transparent.
Why be all cute about it ? |
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Jun-16-11 | | Calli: Each discovery brings new questions. In this case, Chess Monthly published a table of Morphy's scores against his Chess Congress opponents in Dec 1857 and a revised list in Jan 1858. Both listed Morphy's score against Lichtenhein as 4 wins and three draws. As this data almost surely came from Morphy himself, it is difficult to explain a 5th win. |
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Jun-16-11
 | | jnpope: Lawson noted that "Although it is now known to be incomplete, the January 1858 issue of the Chess Monthly printed the following list of games played by Morphy (including tournament games) during his stay in New York..." Lawson says "now known to be incomplete" because of games he discovered and published in 8/1978 and 9/1979 BCMs which were not counted in those Chess Monthly totals. So those totals are not accurate which probably means they didn't come from Morphy (as I'm sure he knew the correct totals). Morphy's contributions to the Chess Monthly consisted mostly of supplying suggestions and annotations to games (I have a list I copied from the JGW collection that identifies the games Morphy annotated for the 1858 and 1859 volumes). |
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Jun-16-11 | | TheFocus: <fab4> <TheFocus:> <What exactly are you on about ?Just be more transparent.
Why be all cute about it ?>
I am saving the material for my Fischer book. I have several things that have not appeared in any other books about Fischer, and don't plan on releasing those either. I guess you will have to wait for it.
But <parisattack> knows what my big find was. I sent him a copy. <Why be all cute about it ?> Maybe <paris> and I are friends and we were just sharing something here. Why should you be a prick about it? |
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Jun-16-11 | | parisattack: I think you have to be a collector and/or a researcher to appreciate not only the joy of <TheFocus>es find - but also the value of it. Having collected chess literature for nearly half-century and done a mite of research myself I can promise you his Fischer tome will have many surprises and definitely rock the space. |
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Jun-16-11 | | TheFocus: <fab4> I apologize about the "prick" remark. That was uncalled for. |
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Jun-17-11 | | fab4: <TheFocus: <fab4> I apologize about the "prick" remark.
That was uncalled for>
Hey no probs. And anyway sometimes I deserve it ! lol. This book sounds interesting. When it gets published I will grab a copy for sure. |
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Jun-17-11
 | | jnpope: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphy...
I'm a 4. Shocking. |
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Jun-17-11 | | parisattack: < jnpope: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphy...
I'm a 4. Shocking.>
I am a lowly 5 :( |
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Jun-17-11 | | TheFocus: I notice that Reference #4 is our own <FSR> NM Frederick Rhine. |
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Jun-17-11
 | | keypusher: <parisattack: < jnpope: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphy... I'm a 4. Shocking.> I am a lowly 5 :(>
I am a four, but via simuls, which I suppose shouldn't count. |
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