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Mar-28-05 | | WMD: Let's not rush to to judgement before we get proper confirmation of the story, and/or Boris's side of things, but it has to be said the news doesn't strike one as incredible. |
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Mar-28-05 | | aw1988: What? Impossible. Spassky would not sign something such as that... |
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Mar-28-05 | | acirce: <aw1988> Why not?
Apparently there is a problematic NIC interview -- 5/2004 according to http://www.avlerchess.com/chess-mis... Maybe someone could look it up. <Some excerpts :
"..our beautiful Jewish Gulag." (B.S. , p. 32 , obviously trying to
put the blame for the
SOVIET Gulag on the Jewish community -- and with a very bad kind
of irony !
"All champions of the world knew the so-called Jewish problem". ;
B.S. , p. 33 ; (???? : what is he talking about ??)
"The first revolutionary government (in Russia , I presume ; CvdV)
was 100 per cent Jewish." ; B.S. , p. 33
Then , on page 34 , he (B.S.) is insinuating that the Jewish people
are selling out all the Russian factories , land , gold .. . (Unfortunately Dirk ten Geuzendam , doing the interview , is
supporting him :
"You mean the Jewish problem in general." ; DJtG, p. 33 ;
WHAT problem ?!?!
"You just spoke highly of Mischa Tal .. Did you discuss these Jewish
matters with him?" (DJtG , p. 35) ; WHAT matters ??) "..if you are quite intelligent or quite well-educated, you must know
this problem". (B.S. , p. 33 , obviously meaning
this strange paranoid "Jewish problem" .. )> Also:
<Spasski's anti-Semitism is confirmed by another trusted source: Timman.
He described a diner in Paris together with Boris Spasski and Bobby Fischer,
organized by van Oosterom. Timman found it very curious to see Boris and
Bobby, both Jewish, talk the whole evening about World Jewish conspiracy and
Spasski fully agreeing with Fischer.> |
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Mar-28-05 | | WMD: Spassky's sympathies could be described as anti-Communist and orthodox Christian. |
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Mar-30-05 | | Kangaroo: Regardless of individual preferneces that Boris V. Spassky may have, he and Robert J, Fischer are now clearly following the footsteps of their great predecessor, Aleksandr A. Alekhin. He also authored several anti-semitic articles in the 1940s. Interesting statistics: three world champions occur to be strong anti-Jews, and only one out of 3 was not a Jew (to the best of my knowledge, Alekhin had nothing in common with Jews). |
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Mar-30-05 | | Hesam7: I agree with <WMD> we should wait a bit to see the confirmation of his comments on Jews. But the post by <acirce> shows (assuming the sources are correct) that Spassky is anti-jew which is quite sad I am disappointed in him as a man, I thought that he was not like this ... <Kangaroo> Many have said Alekhine had a bad situation and was forced to do this, but I think this is not a decent excuse (IMO he was not under such a pressure to write this stuff) |
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Mar-30-05 | | RisingChamp: You might not think he was under such a pressure,but when the Nazis ask you to do something it was usually a do or die situation,and he had every right to select "do" rather than die. |
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Mar-30-05
 | | keypusher: I am unaware of any evidence (other than Alekhine's own self-serving statements) that the Nazis ever asked him to do anything. Unlike the Soviets, they did not care about chess. |
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Mar-30-05
 | | offramp: You should see my opinions about Alekhine (on the Alekhine page)! |
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Mar-30-05 | | Appaz: I am tired of these jew discussions: both from the jews and anti-jews. What "jews" are we talking about? Is it the jewish "race" (wich do not exist since it is dependent of the mother); is it the little tribal religion; or is it the Israelis? WTF is so important about jews? |
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Mar-30-05
 | | BishopBerkeley: <Appaz> I appreciate that you grow weary of these discussions of anti-semitism, but I do think the sad fact is that anti-semitism has played a significant role in the history of Chess, which is why it sometimes comes up (appropriately, I think) on these boards. So far as I know, there is no broad consensus on who is Jewish and who isn't. One can be religiously Jewish, culturally Jewish, or Jewish by descent. (One friend of mine says one can be gastronomically Jewish!) And though a large segment of the religious Jewish community regards "Jewishness" as descending along the mother's line, I've certainly known people who are descended from a Jewish father only who regard themselves as Jewish. And one can even convert to Judaism (though not all groups of religious Jewish people may acknowledge ones conversion: http://www.convert.org/ ) I think one sense of "Jewishness" involves self-identification as Jewish, and another (often unwelcome) sense involves "other-identification" of one as Jewish (sometimes by some entity that wishes to set limits on Jewish participation.) This site, I have found, has some pretty good answers to questions about Judaism and Jewish culture, etc.: http://www.jewfaq.org/
I have also found that one of the more insightful treatments of anti-semitism is a book by the (non-Jewish) French philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre titled, "Anti-Semite and Jew : An Exploration of the Etiology of Hate": http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t... I do not agree with all that Sartre says in this book, but he does say much that is worthwhile about this sad phenomenon in human history. Incidentally, I'm not Jewish myself (except perhaps in the gastronomic sense :), but a disproportionate number of my friends have typically been Jewish at most times in my life. I've always attributed this to the fact that I am a lover of learning, and much of Jewish culture has placed great value on learning (historically). I hope these links are helpful!
♗ Bishop Berkeley ♗
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Mar-31-05 | | Appaz: <BishopBerkeley> Thanks for the links, although I must admit that I just had a glance at them. I am now contributing to the discussion I criticised, but so be it. <the sad fact is that anti-semitism has played a significant role in the history of Chess> The sad fact is that this discussions have played a significant role in the post-christ history, all the way up to the present. Anti-semitism is still a hot topic (e.g. in the Eastern-European countries), and while the anti-semitists blames most thing on the jews, some jews often accuse any critics of beeing anti-semitists (happens to me "all the time"). When discussing anti-semitism of the past (e.g. at the 19th and the beginning of the 20th cenutry), one must remember that this was not an extreme view in those days. In Norway, our constitution forbid jews to enter the country as late as 1851 (jesuits was allowed into the country in 1956!), but in the society the anti-semtitism was comme-il-faux up World War II. Considering where and when Spasskij grew up, it is not surprising he has this wiews (still I must admit I am a little disappointed). This topic seems to pop up whatever is beeing discussed, so it seems anti-semitism is alive and kicking even today. In my view the current israeli politics, supported by USA, is one of the main driving force behind modern anti-semitism, and the hate mongers find support for any of their paranoic conspiracy theories in this. I have no experience with jewish food, but would really like to try it, as I am very fond new and (to me) exotic food. I could never convert in a gastronomioc way though, as I am unable to live with the limitations of kosher :) |
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Mar-31-05 | | Hesam7: <Appaz> Regarding the current middle east politics I think after Arafat's death we have seen good progress in peace process. |
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Mar-31-05 | | acirce: "Peace" is neither possible nor desirable while Palestine remains occupied. Abbas is a quisling. |
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Mar-31-05 | | Hesam7: <acirce> Israilis are handing over the Gazza strip. I think that is a real change. |
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Mar-31-05 | | acirce: Dream on.. :-) Israel is not handing over anything. They obviously intend to keep control. They just evacuate some expensive settlements while expanding on the West Bank. Abbas is an Israeli puppet whose role is to put an end to the (armed or otherwise) struggle for real liberation. We probably shouldn't discuss it at length on this site, but I must just say that I completely disagree with those who see any reason for optimism due to the current "peace" negotiations. |
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Mar-31-05 | | Hesam7: <acirce> I have a dream ... What do you mean by real liberation? I mean in which circumstances you agree that the real liberation is done? Abbas was elected by palestinian people (with 70% of popular vote if I am not mistaken). You have posted that we should not discuss it here I agree this page is devoted to Boris Spassky but this issu is closely related to anti-semitism as pointed by <Appaz>. |
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Mar-31-05
 | | cu8sfan: So many times, great hopes for peace in the Middle East were shattered. I don't think it will happen. Never ever, fogetaboutit! Maybe in a billion years when the Middle Eastern plate will be disappearing under the African plate... |
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Mar-31-05 | | Appaz: <Hesam7> Oh, we have seen progress before, haven't we? Like the Oslo agreement. But then Sharon was elected, and he knew that visiting the Temple Mount of Al-Aqsa would provoke a new intifada, giving the Israelis an excuse to kill Palestine leaders, and occupy more land. And then suddenly, the Palestine people is accused for the agression. Wake up and smell the fish! Haven't you seen this before? It's a sly strategy playing good guy/bad guy, giving the world hope for progress. The corrupt, massmurder and war criminal Sharon (Shabra and Shatilla) will soon find an excuse to tighten the thumbscrews again. This man is EVIL! He hates Palestinans and enjoy killing them. Imagine that Israel had the nerve to demanded that Syria respected one UN resolution, having neglected 40-50 resolutions themselves. This is getting off topic as usual (sorry <cg.com>), so this is my last word on this matter (for now). |
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Mar-31-05 | | acirce: <Hesam7> I agree that it is connected to anti-Semitism which is connected to Spassky, but a discussion about Israel and Palestine can easily go on forever and that is surely not the purpose of this page. I hope this will be my last post on the subject for now. Let me just say that elections under foreign military occupation is a perverted joke, in Palestine as in Iraq. Israel had put strict limitations on the election platforms and the propaganda. They have always harrassed and murdered people they don't like. Abbas was the preferred candidate of Israel and the USA so it's not surprising he "won". (And yes, he got 62% of the votes, but then again there was only a 46.7% turnout of eligible voters, meaning less than 30% voted for him - http://peaceandjustice.org/article....) Absolutely nothing that has happened lately has got the Palestinians one inch closer to their own independent state. |
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Mar-31-05
 | | BishopBerkeley: <Appaz> & <other friends> I do agree that some measure of the anti-semitism we see today is driven by strong feelings about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Even so, I believe it is a mistake to associate all Jewish people with the conduct of the nation of Israel. One friend of mine, a professor of philosophy (who happens to be Jewish) is quite active with the group "Americans for Peace Now": http://www.peacenow.org/
Though not perfect (to my thinking), here are some of the proposals this group supports: http://www.peacenow.org/about/posit...
This friend is also one of the many American Jews to sign this open letter concerning peace between Palestinians and Israelis. It is worth reading. If there is a "shape" of enduring peace in the Middle East, I have to think it's something like this: http://www.peacemideast.org/
Among the points in the letter:
=> Israeli and Palestinian lives are equally precious. => The Israeli and Palestinian peoples have equal rights to national self-determination and to live in peace and security. =>The Israeli and Palestinian peoples have equal rights to a fair share of the land and resources of historic Palestine. I think my friend's views are very common among American Jewish people and I suspect among many Jewish people around the world. It is my sincere hope that one day the children of Abraham will live together in peace. I do not expect to see it in my lifetime (and I'm hardly old, at 43), but I don't think it's unrealistic to hope that children alive today will live to see that day. Salaam, Shalom to all...
♗ Bishop Berkeley ♗
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Mar-31-05 | | Kangaroo: We were not talking about Palestinians here, the problem was Spassky and his involvement into an antisemitic action. The references to Alekhin and Fisher from my viewpoint meant to emphasize that Spassky was not the only one. In music it was also very well known tendency (Richard Wagner, for instance), which does not expell the composer from the top of the list. Just facts. And please, guys, do not mix the antisemitism with the Middle East problems. This is a different story, not related to Spassky. |
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Mar-31-05 | | Chris00nj: I'm surprised to hear Spassky's comments myself. I had thought he was a decent guy. After wondering whether Steneitz was Jewish and doing a google search... I found a complete list: http://www.jinfo.org/Chess_Players....
I think it's just about everyone! Since the modern era, out of 13 world championships, 8 were Jewish, not to mention many of the strongest contenders. Somehow I would have guess Bronstein or Rubenstein, but I would never have guess Tal or Botvinnik. Imagine the world of chess without ever having Jewish players. Take a look at the list and then look at Zurich 1953 (http://www.mark-weeks.com/chess/525...) Even the clicking the button which says Kibitz is a Yiddish word. It's also best to limit politics to chess politics. Where it is relavant to speak of Spassky and his alleged anti-semitism, debating the Israeli-Palestinian conflict here is a bad bad bad idea. |
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Mar-31-05 | | Kangaroo: Well, Jewishness of Steinitz, Lasker, Botvinnik, Tal, not to mention other famous chess champions (not world champions, though), has nothing to do with antisemitism as it was revealed by Spassky. Even if there were no Jew among the world best players, antisemitism is a shame for everyone who publicly expressed it. Sad that Spassky who himself may be viewed as one of the most wonderful contributors into Chess Art, occurred to be among those to be ashamed of. Yet, as mentioned, he was not alone, accompanied by Alekhin and Fischer. |
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Mar-31-05 | | tud: I know a lot of sources saying that Spasski was jewish but he was not at least this is what he says about himself and probably he knows better. There are some orgs going too far on generalizing it :-) like the story about Fischer's father and so on. With all the due respect for the education given by jewish families (which has born so many individual values) let's not push it. I was even reading that Bill Gates and Issac Newton are/were jewish. It is a sensible issue for a lot of people probably. |
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