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May-28-11 | | bronkenstein: I dont believe that Botvinnik supported Mao Zedong :) And he definitely had no access to all that wiki info you linked , so blaming him that way is pointless. (PS no matter how low my opinion on him , as a person , might be , this is simply bad argument =) |
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May-28-11
 | | keypusher: <Sourceless Soltis> For Treachery In Zurich at least he had a source: Bronstein's article in 64. Assuming he quoted it accurately, anyone can look up what I think of it. It is interesting to juxtapose Bronstein's comments in the tournament book with the quotes from Treachery in Zurich. Also interesting to track the path of the leaders between rounds 20 and 28, which I'll post on the Bronstein page at some point. I wish cg.com had pages for great historical tournaments. I have read that Botvinnik made some pro-liberalization remarks at some point between 1948 and 1951 and got in a lot of trouble. But I've never seen a trustworthy source for this. |
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May-28-11 | | BobCrisp: <Spassky> should have claimed, like <Tal>, that he was exercising his right to sign on <Fischer>'s behalf. As for the summer solstice, sorry, <Sourceless Soltis>, I don't think there's any imputation that <Andy> is untrustworthy, merely that he lacks academic rigour. |
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May-28-11 | | bronkenstein: <...TK: I believe that some time around 1954, Botvinnik wrote a
political article. It had to do with the subject of fomenting
socialist revolution in western countries.
YA: Yes, this story was published in our historical magazine a
number of years ago [It appeared in Istorichesky Archiv,
#2/1993, pp. 58-67]. I read it.
TK: Ah, good. And if I understand correctly, the position
Botvinnik espoused was not what the Politburo wanted to hear
...
YA: What he wrote was a letter to the chief editor of Pravda,
who was a member of the Politburo. And you know, this
incident points out a main problem with Botvinnik; I wrote
about it in my memoirs. Botvinnik thought he was champion in
everything: chess, politics, economics, and including, by the
way, computers. Because you know, for 30 years he worked in
the wrong direction in computers.
TK: Yes, he tried to develop a chess “artificial intelligence.”
YA: Yes, and the main point is that we don’t know what we
file:///C|/Cafe/skittles/skittles.htm (3 of 11) [07/15/2002 8:30:58 AM]
The Skittles Room
ourselves think, and Botvinnik wanted to make a machine that
works like our brain. But he did not know how our brain works.
TK: You are saying that Botvinnik got a “swelled head,” he
got too high an opinion of himself?
YA: Oh, he began to think that he was able to do everything.
You know, I had a talk with him about this problem, the
problem of a chess-playing computer, because I was also an
engineer. I also got a proposal to start work on a chess
computer, but after some thought, I refused to do such work,
because I felt I was too old to start. It is work for the young
generation, people who know much more mathematics than
Botvinnik and I. This is my point. But because Botvinnik
believed he could do anything, he agreed to do these things.
And it was the same with economics. You know, in the 1990s,
before he died, he wrote also a big thesis about how to
transform our economy. I learned this from a man who was the
Minister of Economics of our country, and he wrote a negative
reply to Botvinnik’s proposal.
And it was just the same with his letter to Pravda. Botvinnik
had his own political ideas, that it was possible to transform the
world toward communism without a third world war.
TK: Yes, that is what he wrote in 1954, right?
YA: Yes, but the answer from the political secretariat was to
the following effect: It is necessary to invite Botvinnik and
explain to him his mistakes, and if he still insists on his own
opinion, he can no longer be a member of the Communist
Party. And then Botvinnik wrote a letter saying “Thank you
very much for pointing out my mistakes,” and he dropped the
subject. He took a step back....>
From http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour... (part 1 ) and http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour... (part 2 ) , Kingston´s Interwiew with Y Averbakh. The quoted stuff lies somewhere around 30% ´depth´ in 2nd part. |
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May-28-11
 | | keypusher: <bronkenstein>
Thanks.
<And it was just the same with his letter to Pravda. Botvinnik had his own political ideas, that it was possible to transform the world toward communism without a third world war. > Worth pointing out that this was orthodoxy under Krushchev within a few years of Botvinnik's letter. Steinitz was the same as Botvinnik; he thought chessplayers should run everything. |
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May-28-11 | | bronkenstein: And on Spassky being lazy , we have ˝insider story˝ By Karpov himself , from the Spassky´s training camp just few days before the match with Bobby. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOh0...) Just few (approx) quotes from Karpov :
<...he was reading ˝Legends of ancient Greece˝ , playing tennis ... he liked to play tennis...> < ...and for the last 20 days he did nothing...absolutely NOTHING ...> < ...I was supposed to play the training match with him , we played just one game , I had completely winning position and overlooked a simple tactics ... Spassky won , and he decided that he is ready for Fischer :) ...> |
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May-28-11 | | Pygeum Lycopene: what opening line was it that Petrosian admonished Spassky for playing, against Fischer? Basically said to the effect Boris didn't know what he was doing in those games. |
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May-28-11 | | AVRO38: < And he definitely had no access to all that wiki info you linked , so blaming him that way is pointless.> That's the same excuse they used at Nuremberg. It didn't work then either! |
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May-28-11
 | | alexmagnus: It's not like Botvinnik directly committed any crimes (so the comparison is wrong). At Nuremberg, nobody was sentenced for just being a Nazi - only for the actions committed by them personally. |
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May-28-11 | | AVRO38: <It's not like Botvinnik directly committed any crimes> Cheering on the sidelines as millions of your fellow citizens are being executed for political reasons is probably not a crime, but it makes Botvinnik a despicable human being who is probably not even worthy of being called a human being. |
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May-28-11 | | bronkenstein: <That's the same excuse they used at Nuremberg. It didn't work then either!> They hanged all the SS oficers because of wiki? Any links ? |
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May-28-11
 | | keypusher: <AVRO38>
<Cheering on the sidelines as millions of your fellow citizens are being executed for political reasons is probably not a crime, but it makes Botvinnik a despicable human being who is probably not even worthy of being called a human being.> Cheering on the sidelines? Got any pictures? |
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May-29-11
 | | perfidious: <keypusher: ....I have read that Botvinnik made some pro-liberalization remarks at some point between 1948 and 1951 and got in a lot of trouble. But I've never seen a trustworthy source for this.> This is one I'd never heard, and certainly goes against Botvinnik's image as the personification of Soviet Man. <AVRO38: <It's not like Botvinnik directly committed any crimes>
Cheering on the sidelines as millions of your fellow citizens are being executed for political reasons is probably not a crime, but it makes Botvinnik a despicable human being who is probably not even worthy of being called a human being.> Neither did Keres, so far as we know, but he was fortunate to escape the hangman's noose. While I agree that if Botvinnik did such a thing, he was a slime bucket,
I'd be more than slightly curious to see some corroboration before making such an accusation. |
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May-29-11
 | | keypusher: <perfidious> Re Botvinnik, see the Yuri Averbakh interview brokenstein posted. Assuming it is the same, I had the year and the topic wrong. |
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May-30-11 | | Pygeum Lycopene: <"Why on earth did Spassky permit the Nimzo-Indian in game five?" Petrosian wanted to know. The champion was hopeless in Nimzo-Indian-type positions, both as white and black.> 'BF goes to war'
(maybe rumored distaste was mutual) |
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May-30-11 | | BUNA: <keypusher: ....I have read that Botvinnik made some pro-liberalization remarks at some point between 1948 and 1951 and got in a lot of trouble. But I've never seen a trustworthy source for this.> An article about the possible victory of Socialism in the west shouldn't count as "pro-liberalization remarks", should it? What you refer to is probably Botvinnik's greeting of the soviet recognition of the jewish state in 1948.
He wrote a letter (to Prawda?) at that time (and might have gotten into trouble afterwards ...). The other well known "liberal act" was Botvinniks refusal to sign the petition against Korchnoi. But he didn't comment on that. =) Then again Averbachs interview to me sounds strange. Should we believe, that a guy, that was known for his preparation, would offer a unprepared solution "to everything"?
And contrary to Averbachs suggestions ("the man who thought he could do everything") Botvinnik did apparently work on chess computers/programs. For quite some time. His first article regarding that topic was received with some scepsis, and Simagin (then in some kind of charge of '64') gave it a try.
At least thats the offical story (I wasn't there), published in Simagins tome of the small black series. |
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May-30-11
 | | keypusher: <BUNA>
<An article about the possible victory of Socialism in the west shouldn't count as "pro-liberalization remarks", should it?> Victory without war was considered very "pro-liberalization" and occasioned complete disgust in China. See below, "Two Different Lines on War and Peace" and "Peaceful Coexistence -- Two Diametrically Opposed Policies." http://www.marx2mao.com/Other/PGLtc... |
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May-30-11 | | BobCrisp: <And contrary to Averbachs suggestions ("the man who thought he could do everything") Botvinnik did apparently work on chess computers/programs. For quite some time.> <Averbach> didn't say <Botvinnik> didn't work on chess computers. On the contrary, <Because you know, for 30 years he worked in the wrong direction in computers.> |
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May-30-11 | | Everett: Averbach was also very dismissive of Bronstein's claims re: Zurich. |
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May-31-11 | | Albertan: London Telegraph (2005)
Outrage in Russia as Spassky puts name to rabidly anti-Semitic petition By Bojan Pancevski
Boris Spassky, the former chess world champion, has caused uproar in Russia by signing a petition that demands the country's state prosecutor bans a number of Jewish organisations. Spassky was among 5,000 Russians who put their name to a letter calling for a ban on all religious and national groups acting on the principles of the Shulchan Aruch, a repository of Jewish law originally written in the 1560s. The "Letter of 5,000", sent three weeks ago, branded Judaism "anti-Christian and inhumane" and accused believers of "committing ritual murders". It warned of a "hidden campaign of genocide against the Russian people and their traditional society and values", and was backed with quotes from anti-Semitic literature from the 19th century. Late on Friday, after constant criticism from religious leaders and figures in the chess world, Spassky tried to distance himself from the campaign. He did not deny that he had signed it, but said: "The appearance of my name was a mistake. As a 'Chess King' I have always tried to fortify and unite the multinational kingdom of chess, and not to cause division within it. I will remain faithful to that principle in my old age." Evgeny Gik, a Russian chess master and writer who is a long-term acquaintance of Spassky, had condemned the letter in a Russian newspaper. He recalled how, in the 1990s, Spassky travelled from his home in France to the St Petersburg chess club to be the guest of honour at a dinner party. There, according to Gik, Spassky remarked: "Everything is good in Russia, but I don't know how the Russian people can have allowed so many big-nosed people into government." Gik said that several grandmasters left the table in protest. Lev Ponomarev, a respected human rights activist, also condemned Spassky's involvement in the letter. "I am ashamed that people of such high moral authority are taking the lead in creating a kind of orthodox Taliban," he said. Spassky, who was born in 1937 and learned to play chess at five, became world chess champion in 1969 - a title that he held until 1972, when he was beaten by the American, Bobby Fischer. The match was perhaps the most legendary chess duel of all time. Many leading Soviet-era players were Jewish, including Garry Kasparov, officially the highest-ranked in the world but now retired. The intense competition created a "them and us" division between Jewish and non-Jewish players, who include Spassky. Although this is the first time that Spassky has given vent to anti-Semitic feelings in public, Fischer - whose parents were, in fact, Jewish - has frequently exposed himself as a Holocaust denier and anti-Semite. In an interview in 1999, he said that Jews were "criminals, parasites, liars and thieves" and described America as a "farce controlled by dirty, hook-nosed, circumcised Jew bastards." The American was detained in prison in Japan last year for travelling on a passport that had been revoked by the US. He was wanted for breaking a trade embargo by playing a rematch with Spassky in the former Yugoslavia, in 1992. The wording of the petition signed by Spassky was almost identical to an earlier "Letter of 500", signed by key Russian politicians and sent to the prosecutor, Gen Vladimir Ustinov, in January. Both petitions called for a ban on the sale and publication of the Shulchan Aruch and for Jewish schools to be monitored to stamp out "extremism". Other leading Russians who signed the later letter included the sculptor Vyacheslav Klykov, the mathematician Igor Sharevich, the writer Vassily Belov, and Orthodox church officials. |
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May-31-11 | | theagenbiteofinwit: <Boris Spassky, the former chess world champion, has caused uproar in Russia by signing a petition that demands the country's state prosecutor bans a number of Jewish organisations.> Since when did Russians start believing what they read in print? This is a new development for me. |
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Jun-02-11 | | kingfu: We all say stupid things. Not a crime.
This is why I push steel around a factory in my old age when I should be on the Golf Course. Words were invented to describe actions. Words, by themselves, are not illegal. Stupid, yes, in Spassky's case.
Crazy , yes in Fischer's. |
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Jun-02-11 | | MaxxLange: I think it sucks if he said these anti-Semitic things, but he's a really old man, and a great great player, and I just don't want to pursue this, personally....the older generation was more prejudiced, maybe he is an example of that |
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Jun-02-11
 | | alexmagnus: There is something about chess world champions and anti-semitism.... Alekhine, Fischer, Spassky... |
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Jun-02-11
 | | Eric Schiller: Spassky and I are friends and I have never seen him show any antagonism toward an individual due to race. I have heard him discuss specific groups of individuals who happen to be Jews and remark on some behavior. But again, I have never seen him criticise any individual due to race. Ever. |
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