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Feb-26-20
 | | Sally Simpson: ***
That brought back some fond memories Petro. Eventually you turn off the animation to play a normal game. Turned them back on for the Checkmate. *** |
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Feb-26-20
 | | HeMateMe: <Kasparov, in my opinion, had a more successful career than Fischer ever did, and by that measurement, I think he deserves better the title of "Best of all times". > Heck, that one's easy. Karpov and Carlsen (already) had bigger careers than Fischer. So did Lasker, Alekhine and Botvinnik. |
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Feb-26-20 | | Petrosianic: <beatgiant>: I see what you're saying. Steiner does say in a Letter to the Editor, that the game was pre-arranged, and that Capa refused to play any other way at that time. It doesn't give any other details, but it seems unlikely that Steiner would make up a story like that, about a mere exhibition game. So, it's probably true. |
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Feb-26-20 | | Petrosianic: <beatgiant> Oh, one thing I can add to the story. I was a bit suspicious at first that Steiner said that the game was pre-arranged right after Capablanca died, and couldn't rebut it. However, his letter makes it clear that Steiner himself is rebutting the fact that the game was included in a Fred Reinfeld book as a real game. Steiner obviously couldn't control when Reinfeld's book came out, so that allays my suspicious about the timing. |
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Feb-27-20 | | asiduodiego: I will dare to ask a question to the Fischer's scholars in this site, because they know a lot about the guy and his personality. There are many arguments of the "What if"s of Fischer: what if he had played Karpov in 1975, or if he had played Gligoric/Quinteros/Korchnoi in the 70s or 80s, or if he had kept on playing after 1992, etc. But, I propose the following scenario. For some mysterious reason, in game 3 of the WC, he suffers some kind of mental breakdown in his chess abilities, and he ends up playing the rest of the match not in his best, and he ends up losing by 2 or 1 point. What do you think would have happened then? Of course, immediatly he would have screamed to the press that the conditions were awful, and the evil russians, etc. the usual schtick. But, in terms of his career, what could have happened then?. Perhaps he may never have retired?. Or perhaps he would have become even more recluse?. Who knows?. I've been reading this site for years, and I've never read anyone making speculation about this (then again, probably there is speculation about this: there is 110 pages of kibitzing in this guy). So, anyone has an opinion on this? |
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Feb-27-20 | | Petrosianic: <So, anyone has an opinion on this?> If Fischer had lost the match (for whatever reason), people would have been upset, of course. Would excuses have been made? Of course, this is chess, isn't it? The really dicey scenario would be if the match ended up in a 12-12 tie. One of Spassky's 12 would have been the forfeit, so Fischer would actually have won 12-11 in games played, but wouldn't have won the title. Would Fischer have kept playing if he'd come up short? Possibly. Who knows? He'd be more likely to keep playing in that case than after a victory, at least. But the next match, if there was one, wouldn't have had the same mystique. |
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Feb-27-20
 | | AylerKupp: <asiduodiego> With Fischer there are an almost impossible number of "ifs". I speculated on another possible scenario in Spassky vs Fischer, 1972 (kibitz #1007) that did not require Fischer having some kind of mental breakdown of his chess abilities during game 3 (which, frankly, I consider rather far fetched), namely, "What would have happened if Spassky had refused to play game 3 in the separate room?" After all, that was a violation of the contract signed by both players. I won't repeat the possibilities I listed and, I'm sure there are more; refer to my post given by the link above if you are curious. And, BTW, my memory is somewhat hazy but I believe I read somewhere that Spassky was indeed told by Euwe that if he didn't play game 3 in the separate room he would be forfeited. I don't know if that's true or not but, given the pressure that both Euwe and the Icelandic chess federation were under to ensure that the match would not be cancelled, I wouldn't be surprised if indeed Euwe did that. He had already shown favoritism towards Fischer by allowing him to play in the 1970 Palma de Mallorca Interzonal even though the didn't qualify for it, and Euwe's and others' bending over backwards to attempt to gloss over Fischer's antics concerning the match playing conditions. |
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Feb-27-20
 | | AylerKupp: <asiduodiego> BTW, with regards to your question, I don't think that Fischer would have continued the match if he had lost game 3, particularly if he had a nervous breakdown that impaired his chess abilities and he was able to recognize that (which is, in itself, a speculation). Under those circumstances I would doubt that he would have been able to keep the margin of defeat at 1 or 2 points; given that he was down 0-2 that would mean that he would have been able to play Spassky on ever terms for the rest of the match in spite of his condition. Instead, I think that would have found new excuses to withdraw or perhaps request a postponement of the match, possibly in a different venue, due to his diminished capacity. Certainly if, say, he'd had a stroke, that would have been a reasonable request. Whether it would have been granted or not is a different issue. But, of course, that's all speculation on my part. |
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Feb-27-20 | | Petrosianic: <He had already shown favoritism towards Fischer by allowing him to play in the 1970 Palma de Mallorca Interzonal even though the didn't qualify for it,> I don't think that's quite correct. There had been substitutions in the interzonal before. Bisguier lost his spot in the 1964 interzonal to Benko in a match that he absolutely didn't have to play. Ray Weinstein and Bill Lombardy also qualified for an interzonal once, and then gave up their spots. One of the spots went to Bisguier who was the next highest finisher in the Zonal, but the other went to Benko, who was way down in the scoretable, presumably because he'd been in the previous Candidates, but how they justified giving it to him ahead of higher finishers in the zonal, I'm not sure. At Palma, not only did Benko give up his spot, but all nine players who finished beneath him in the zonal also waived any right to the spot. At that point, what else could Euwe do, but allow the USCF to re-assign the spot to somebody else? |
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Feb-27-20
 | | Sally Simpson: ***
The Benko deal only applied to Fischer, if Fischer said 'No' then Benko would go to the interzonal so I'm not too sure if the other players below Benko needed to be asked, either way they were not going to interzonal. FIDE agreed America could replace one of their three qualifying players if the playing dropping out agreed. Benko agreed...His side of the story.
Pal Benko (kibitz #216) *** |
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Feb-27-20
 | | HeMateMe: Benko was playing well. He might have gotten past Larsen and Taimonov but would not have defeated Petrosian. He 'manned up' and gave his spot to Fischer. If chess were a bigger sport or if the internet had been around in '71 more people would understand that half of Fischer's legacy, beating Spassky 12 1/2 to 8 1/2 would not exist without Benko. No baffler here--Benko was a great player and a helluva sportsman. Fischer was a DIK for not publicly thanking him, not once but many times. |
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Feb-27-20 | | Petrosianic: <I'm not too sure if the other players below Benko needed to be asked,> I don't know if they needed to be, but they were. But had Karl Burger tried to take the spot, I'm sure Benko would have rescinded his offer to step down. |
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Feb-27-20 | | SChesshevsky: <asiduodiego...he ends up playing the rest of the match...and he ends up losing...> Interesting to think how Fischer would've proceeded if he was 0-3 or .5 - 2.5 after three. In 72, Fischer was unpredictable and volatile but still generally sensible. Especially related to chess. For him, he knew that he was better than Spassky. All he had to do was prove it on the chess board. I think Fischer would've continued until he got one or two wins. In fact, the greater the Spassky lead without a Fischer win maybe the greater the chance Fischer plays. Think the head to head tension and the unknown disturbed Fischer most. Strangely, Spassky up 3.5 - .5 reduces that tension. But once Fischer got his couple of wins I'd guess anything could happen if Spassky still had a sizable lead. Maybe equal chances of straight forfeit, controversial forfeit or continued play. Fischer being unpredictable and volatile. Though by 1992 it's different. Fischer much more off-center. Believe it was clear to both after first games that Spassky was going to dominate and Fischer was ready to fold. Seems there was some talk/rumor about this. Think afterward Spassky took it easy to appease Fischer and keep the match going. |
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Feb-27-20
 | | harrylime: Bobby Fischer is the greatest chess player of all time. It's that simple.
😁 |
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Feb-27-20 | | Petrosianic: <Harrylol> Then why do you hate him so? |
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Feb-27-20 | | Petrosianic: <HeMateMe> <No baffler here--Benko was a great player and a helluva sportsman. Fischer was a DIK for not publicly thanking him, not once but many times.> Fischer thought it was no big deal. That he'd gotten Benko's spot, but Benko had gotten his spot in 1964, so it evened out. Fischer was mistaken about that. Benko did play in the 1964 Interzonal without qualifying. But, as mentioned, Benko got Bisguier's spot, which he won in a match. Not Fischer's. Fischer's spot in 1964 went to Larry Evans. |
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Feb-28-20
 | | Sally Simpson: ***
Fischer may have thanked Benko privately, we will never know. When the idea of 'Benko out and Bobby in' was brought up in the July 1970 Chess Life and Review (page 370) which was months before FIDE and the Americans met to discuss the matter, Bobby said Benko would not give up his place without cash. (which I suppose is only right because Benko would have been giving up $2,000 appearance fee. So once again we give the link Pal Benko (kibitz #216) to get Benko's side of the story.) And mention of an appearance fee also hints that it was not just America, FIDE and most of the rest of the chess world that wanted Fischer to play. The organisers of the Interzonal were so desperate to secure Fischer they offered and paid Fischer a $15,000 appearance fee (David Levy, CHESS, 'Christmas Edition' 1970). *** |
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Feb-28-20 | | RFW3: <AylerKupp> I agree that if Fischer has lost game 3, the match would have been over. As for getting a postponement, I can't see how the Soviets would have agreed to such a thing. By that point, Fischer had already arrived late, and insulted Spassky by not showing up at the drawing of lots. From their point of view, the Soviets could have rightfully claimed that Fischer no longer had the right to play for the world championship and ordered Spassky to return home. |
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Feb-28-20 | | RFW3: <Sally Simpson : And mention of an appearance fee also hints that it was not just America, FIDE and most of the rest of the chess world that wanted Fischer to play.> I rather suspect the Soviets weren't all that enthused about Fischer playing in the Interzonal. I think they, along with the rest of the chess world understood Fischer was the best chance for a Soviet world champion to be dethroned by a non Soviet, and they weren't exactly the best of pals. |
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Feb-28-20 | | diceman: Fortunately, Fischer left chess after the 1972 match, finally giving the Benkos/Byrnes/Karl Burgers their shot at the crown. How'd they do? :) |
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Feb-28-20 | | Petrosianic: <diceman>: <Fortunately, Fischer left chess after the 1972 match, finally giving the Benkos/Byrnes/Karl Burgers their shot at the crown.> Obviously you didn't know this, but Benko played in the Candidates twice, both times before Fischer retired. |
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Feb-28-20
 | | AylerKupp: <<Petrosianic> I don't think that's quite correct.> Perhaps not. But while there had been player replacements for Interzonals before, these replacements were not instigated by Euwe who did not become FIDE president until 1970. At any rate, the replacements you mentioned were USCF issues, not FIDE issues, and would not have involved Euwe in any way. For those who are not familiar with the situation, the 1962 US Championship (US Championship (1962)) served as the US qualifying event for the 1964 Amsterdam Interzonal. The top 2 finishers would qualify. Bisguier finished 2nd and therefore qualified for it along with Fischer (who finished 1st), but Fischer declined to participate in the Interzonal. Addison, Evans, and Reshevsky finished in a tie for 3rd place and played a mini-tournament which Reshevsky won, followed by Evans and then Addison. So the two US representatives should have been Bisguier and Reshevsky. I don't know why Bisguier "had" to play a match against Benko who had finished in a tie for 9-10 place with Rossolimo, with a <minus> score of 4½ - 6½ compared to Bisguier's score of 7-4 in order to select one of the two US representatives. It seems to me that it was a done deal. I can only guess that, as you mentioned, just like later in 1969, the USCF wanted to send the best US players to the Interzonal and Benko, who had recently emigrated to the US in 1958, was considered a better player than Bisguier (probably true) and certainly had more international tournament experience, having competed in the 1959 Yugoslavia and 1962 Curacao Candidates Tournaments. And anybody can have a bad tournament, for example, even Fischer in Buenos Aires (1960), tied for 13th place with 4 others with a score of 8.5/19. The 1962 US Championship was apparently Benko's. And some day it will be Carlsen's turn. Lombardy and Weinstein qualified for the 1960 Zone 5 (USA) zonal tournament by finishing 2nd and 3rd respectively (Fischer, as usual, finished 1st). According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World... and http://graeme.50webs.com/chesschamp..., Lombardy was too busy to play since he was either in seminary school or had already become a priest and Weinstein was too busy with his college studies, possibly in the middle of exams. Their places were taken by Bisguier and Reshevsky who finished tied for 4-6 with Sherwin. I could not find any mention why Bisguier and Reshevsky were selected instead of Sherwin but both Bisguier (participating in 2 Chess Olympics) and Reshevsky (certainly!) had much more international playing experience than Sherwin, who had none. So the USCF's selection of Bisguier and Reshevsky, by whatever method was used, was consistent with their later selection of Benko(ironically) over Bisguier. So, given the history of "irregularities" by the USCF, I'm not sure why US players and chess fans complain about the history of "irregularities" by FIDE. |
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Feb-28-20 | | Howard: Regarding Benko's conceding his 1970 interzonal spot to Bobby, all the other players in the 1969 championship had to waive their rights to that spot. Inside Chess tells that story in a one-page editorial they wrote on Kamsky's getting a free ticket to the 1990 interzonal (in which he bombed out), plus Richard Roberts' book on the Fischer-Spassky match also tells about this. Sounds fair to me. If Benko didn't want his spot, the fourth-place finisher would have had every right to claim it then. If he didn't want it either, then the fifth-place finisher could have come forward to claim it...and so on, down the line. |
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Feb-28-20 | | Petrosianic: <I don't know why Bisguier "had" to play a match against Benko< I don't think he did have to, he just agreed to because he didn't mind losing his interzonal spot. That's not to suggest that he threw the match or anything. Maybe if he'd won it, he'd have been emboldened enough to play in the Interzonal after all. But Benko, who finished much better than expected at Curacao must have been seen as the better representative. Sheesh, if he'd won that won game against Geller in the last round, he'd only have finished -1. But substitutions like that have been frequent. Evans qualified for the 1952 Interzonal and didn't want the spot. Reshevsky qualified for Portoroz, didn't want it, and Sherwin took his place. Lombardy and Weinstein qualified for the 1962 Interzonal, but neither played. This stuff has never been etched in stone. If anybody had been pushed aside , that would be one thing, but with Benko and all the others stepping aside themselves, I just can't get too worked up about Fischer being given the interzonal spot. Heck, people were gifted spots in the CANDIDATES later on. Spassky played in the 1985 Candidates tournament because the organizers were allowed to fill one spot with anybody they wanted, and they picked Spassky. |
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Feb-28-20 | | Howard: Actually, the reason Spassky was chosen was because the event was held in France, and the host country was allowed to seed a player of its own. In fact, it was in 1984 when Spassky stopped representing the Soviet Union in tournaments, and starting representing France instead. It was an event in Yugoslovia, in 1984, where Spassky played in his last tournament under the Soviet flag. |
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