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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 48 OF 48 ·
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| Jun-18-09 |
| AnalyzeThis: <Petrosianic: You really think they were quaking in their boots just because some kid won the US Championship? > They probably thought he was just another talented junior until Stockholm 1962, at which point they must have started to take him seriously. |
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| Jun-18-09 |
| Petrosianic: They didn't take him seriously even then. Kotov did even better at the 1952 Interzonal, and never got near the title. Too young, too unobjective, and too many personal hangups to ever put his talent together (Fischer that is, not Kotov). The ultimate example of how badly they underestimated him is that as late as 1970, at age 59, Botvinnik still believed he could beat Fischer in a match himself. Their match fell apart because Fischer walked out, not because Botvinnik had the sense to. Fischer was afraid he couldn't get the best of Botvinnik in a mere 18 games and demanded at the last minute that they change it to first to win 6 games. Good thing for Botvinnik's sake that he did, because he spared him a terrible end-of-career beating. It's politically correct to imagine all sorts of plots against Fischer, to explain away his setbacks, but in fact the Soviets were guilty of the opposite sin: failing to take him seriously enough until it was far too late. They'd had no serious opposition for so long they just couldn't bring themselves to admit that an outsider might stand a real chance against their superior system. |
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Jun-18-09
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| parisattack: The chapter on Portoroz 1958 in Russians versus Fischer seems to well indicate the Soviets were more than just 'aware' of Fischer. Koblenz - 'Bobby passed a serious examination in his games against the four Soviet participants, who, I will not hide the fact, very much wanted to 'punish' the youth.' |
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Jun-18-09
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| HeMateMe: How could they not take him seriously? He had a plus score against almost russian or soviet sattellite player, except Spassky, and, I think, Leonid Stein. |
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Jun-20-09
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| jackpawn: Again, to repeat my point, absolutely nobody in history achieved Fischer's success at age 14-15 up to that time. Remember, this was in the 1950's, well before computers made it much easier for youngsters to become very strong at an early age. I think nearly everyone in the chess community saw him as a potential world champion in the future. |
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| Jun-20-09 |
| slomarko: <but in fact the Soviets were guilty of the opposite sin: failing to take him seriously enough until it was far too late.> Petrosianic trolling like usual. |
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Jun-20-09
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| keypusher: <Petrosianic> <jackpawn> I think he was seen as a possible future WC 1958-1962. But for the rest of the 1960s his temperment and results worsened. I think between one and the other the Soviets started to think he would never get it together to make a real run at the title. Based purely on results I think Botvinnik was justified in thinking he would suffer a narrow defeat, but nothing worse, in early 1970. But I also agree with Petrosianic that Botvinnik would have gotten killed because it turned out that Fischer had seriously raised his game. |
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| Jun-20-09 |
| visayanbraindoctor: <jackpawn: Again, to repeat my point, absolutely nobody in history achieved Fischer's success at age 14-15 up to that time. Remember, this was in the 1950's, well before computers made it much easier for youngsters to become very strong at an early age.> An interesting observation. Continuously active competitive chessplayers keep on getting stronger until at some point in their careers, they hit a plateau, and then sometime in middle age begin sliding down; with intermittent valleys and peaks interspersed all throughout. Within a population of interacting players, this is reflected in their ratings. For most chessplayers before the computer age, the chess plateau seemed to occur at around the ages of 26 to 40. There are notable exceptions. Morphy, Lasker, Pillsbury, Reshevsky, Fine, Keres, Tal, Karpov, Kasparov, and Kramnik seemed to have been playing near their plateau right out of their teens or in their early 20s; but in general this trend can be seen for such luminaries as Anderssen, Steinitz, Rubinstein, Capablanca, Alekhine, Euwe, Botvinnik, Bronstein, Smyslov, Petrosian, Spassky, Korchnoi, Fischer, and Anand. At the other end, Anderssen, Steinitz, Lasker, Botvinnik, and Karpov were still close to their high plateau even at 50. With the advent of computer-assisted learning, it's possible that this plateau has been moved to younger ages. This could account for the glut of youthful prodigies since 2000. However, unless something fundamentally changes to the human genome such that it can now blueprint brains that function like computers, youthful prodigies would be expected to reach their high plateaus too; only that this would more often occur earlier than in past generations. Eventually, it will be the individual's innate chess abilities as determined by his genes, chess opportunities in his social setting, motivation, and health which will determine how high his plateau would be and how long it would last. |
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Jun-20-09
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| HeMateMe: One could make the point that this computer assitance, deeper opening theory, computer-assisted middle game planning, deeper end game calculations, etc., also benefits the players in their 30s who have to play against the teen prodigies. ALL players now have a deeper repertoire, so it is unclear if the advent of chess software benefits one group more than the other. The appearance of several teen GMs might be due to ratings 'devaluation.' When Bobby Fischer was a teenager, there were approximately 200 GMs in the world. Now, I guess, there are several thousand. This makes the GM title a bit watered down. Of all these teen prodigies in the last few years, only Magnus Carlson and Hou Yifan have shown real promise for cracking the top ten and staying there. |
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| Jun-20-09 |
| visayanbraindoctor: <HeMateMe: One could make the point that this computer assistance, deeper opening theory, computer-assisted middle game planning, deeper end game calculations, etc., also benefits the players in their 30s who have to play against the teen prodigies. ALL players now have a deeper repertoire, so it is unclear if the advent of chess software benefits one group more than the other.> Good point. Instead of going through dozens of printed chess magazines, openings books, and tournament books, the masters of the 1990s (including Anand, Kramnik, Topalov, Ivanchuk, Gelfand, Shirov, Kamsky and so on) just have to press a few buttons on the keyboard. Computers make research easier for every one. Had good computer chess software existed in 1980s, then there could have been a glut of of teen GMs right in 1990, beginning with the above players. They probably would have reached their plateau earlier. Or maybe not, as there are other hypotheses given below. <The appearance of several teen GMs might be due to ratings 'devaluation.' When Bobby Fischer was a teenager, there were approximately 200 GMs in the world. Now, I guess, there are several thousand. This makes the GM title a bit watered down.> Indeed, there seems to be a popular feeling that the term Grandmaster had a higher value before the 1990s. Has any mathematician made a thesis on <ratings devaluation>? Thus in the above discussion, the appearance of numerous teen GMs in the 2000s may be due to 1. Computer chess softwares.
2. Ratings devaluation.
3. The existence of numerous GMs today makes it easier for non GMs to make the norms. Other hypotheses:
4. I think there was a time when FIDE required only 2 norms; or in brief made it easier to become a GM, resulting in a sudden increase of GMs, which in turn would lead to #3 above. 5. The dissolution of the Soviet Union allowed numerous local players there, who were already playing chess at GM levels but could not make the norms because the tournaments they played in were mostly unrated or were all limited to Soviet Union citizens, to play in international tournaments in Western Europe which were rated and which had the required participants from multiple countries to create GM norms. 6. And how about: People today are inherently more intelligent than they were in the 1980s? As mentioned above, human genomes are more or less the same in the 1980s and today, so unless the human genome gets significantly altered to begin the production of brains that function like computers, IMO this is simply a form of present-generation narcissism. |
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Jun-20-09
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| HeMateMe: the more GMs, and the more tournament activity--the more new GMs are created. There is probably some kind of math formula that tells you just how much expansion occurs, given a few known variables. I guess its irrelevant, given that, after following a few strong tournaments each year, you realize who the real killers are. One interest aspecet about changing physiology--its been suggested that kids are bigger today (athletes for example, are much bigger) because of certain foods like milk have changed. Because livestock are fed with feed that contains steroids, some of this is thought to be going into the reproduction cycle, we are 'growing' bigger, larger kids. Could they mean a larger, more efficiant brain? Who knows... |
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| Jun-21-09 |
| visayanbraindoctor: <I guess its irrelevant, given that, after following a few strong tournaments each year, you realize who the real killers are.> Quite right. For any given population of interacting active chessplayers, every one gets to quickly know who the real killers are. <HeMateMe: Because livestock are fed with feed that contains steroids, some of this is thought to be going into the reproduction cycle, we are 'growing' bigger, larger kids. Could they mean a larger, more efficiant brain?> Unfortunately not. Our genes program the number of neurons we have at birth, and neurons do not divide to form more neurons after they have differentiated. They can die though; but fortunately there is usually enough to keep our brains functional for a lifetime. The upright stance of humans also result in narrower pelvises. Larger pelvises would result in women who could not walk upright. For more than a hundred thousand years, any baby born with too large a head, resulting in a cephalo-pelvic disproportion, died. Often along with its mother. "Died at childbirth" was quite common before modern Medicine, and this was one of the reasons. I would guess that this was one of the evolutionary constraints regarding growing a larger brain. By the way, there is a theory that the evolution of larger brains is the result of neoteny. But this is another story. |
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| Jul-07-09 |
| Tripler: Didn't Spassky say recently that he wished he had been playing in the C19th? "Now you lose when your phone rings." Still, Chigorin used to have a bottle of brandy by the table in his match with Steinitz. (As you do when you're trying to become the world chess champion.) It's well known that Spassky's results were dire for a champion after 1969 - in the 60s he was probably the best player (apart from the 1966 loss to Petrosian) - but he was not a Party Member and is really an old fashioned Russian monarchist who, er, lives in France... |
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| Jul-16-09 |
| swissfed: [Chess Drawing]
1.Former World Chess Champion Boris Spassky, beaten by Bobby Fischer in the legendary Match of the Century
in Reykjavik 1972, celebrates his 70th birthday.
http://www.oliverschopf.com/html/e_... |
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Aug-07-09
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| parisattack: < Tripler: ... Didn't Spassky say recently that he wished he had been playing in the C19th? It's well known that Spassky's results were dire for a champion after 1969> True. Aside from the 1966 match with Petrosian, Spassky's best chess (Chessmetrics to the contrary) seemed to be 1965-1969. |
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Aug-10-09
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| kamalakanta: <Tripler:> <It's well known that Spassky's results were dire for a champion after 1969 - in the 60s he was probably the best player (apart from the 1966 loss to Petrosian) - but he was not a Party Member and is really an old fashioned Russian monarchist who, er, lives in France...> I have read somewhere that Spassky said that the years in which he was World Champion were the worst years of his life. He is writing an autobiography. I hope he explains to us what he means by that statement. |
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| Aug-11-09 |
| WhiteRook48: maybe it was about Russian rule |
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| Aug-14-09 |
| patzer of patzers: <kamalakanta>: Here are two Spassky quotes from the <unsourced> section of <Wiki>quote (that is my disclaimer): "After I won the title, I was confronted with the real world. People do not behave naturally anymore - hypocrisy is everywhere." "In my country, at that time, being a champion of chess was like being a King. At that time I was a King … and when you are King you feel a lot of responsibility, but there is nobody there to help you." He also apparently said that he wanted never to be champion again. |
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Aug-15-09
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| kamalakanta: <patzer of patzers> <kamalakanta>: <Here are two Spassky quotes from the <unsourced> section of <Wiki>quote (that is my disclaimer):> <"After I won the title, I was confronted with the real world. People do not behave naturally anymore - hypocrisy is everywhere."> <"In my country, at that time, being a champion of chess was like being a King. At that time I was a King … and when you are King you feel a lot of responsibility, but there is nobody there to help you."> <He also apparently said that he wanted never to be champion again.> It's funny...in the video interview with Susan Polgar at the Olympics last year, he showed he could be ironic with a totally straight face, when he said something like: "...you know, I did not know it, but Morozevich was the author of the Merano variation...". Of course, he was being ironic. The Meran variation was pioneered by Rubinstein in Meran, 1924, and it takes its name from that tournament. So when he says that he is a monarchist, I do not quite believe him. |
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| Aug-19-09 |
| patzer of patzers: Um...I think I'll let you handle all of that. I don't really know much about this conversation, just saw you talk about Spassky's unhappiness about being World Champion and thought I'd use some quotes from him. |
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| Sep-29-09 |
| piroflip: I asked this question a while back but nobody seemed to know the answer.
Time to try again.
Do any Boris fans here know what became of the stunning Larrisa? |
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| Sep-29-09 |
| Petrosianic: <Do any Boris fans here know what became of the stunning Larrisa?> She became less stunning. |
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| Sep-30-09 |
| Capabal: Spassky strikes one as a gentleman, smooth, well-mannered, but with a certain wry wit, and not prone to excessive work or to obsessive endeavors. He practices the truest gentleman games available: chess and tennis, with proper detachment and never losing sight of the fact they are games, leasure activities. He may not have been as cavalier regarding hard work as Capablanca, but along similar lines. Karpov once wrote the following about Spassky:
“I consider myself to be an idler, too, but the dimensions of Spassky’s laziness were astounding”
(Karpov on Karpov: ‘Memoirs of a Chess World Champion’, page 98) No wonder he did not like the pressure of being champion. Of all the world champions, the hardest working ones (in chronological order) must be: Alekhine, Fischer, Kasparov |
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Oct-30-09
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| waustad: The match with Korchnoi could be fun. It's a shame that Smyslov may be a bit too old to get in on these. |
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| Nov-01-09 |
| Everett: Well, at least Alekhine and Kasparov did some work AFTER becoming champion. |
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 48 OF 48 ·
Later Kibitzing > |
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