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Feb-18-24
 | | HeMateMe: what if the audience were shown the chess position in the james bond movie? That's from a Tal game, isn't it? |
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Feb-18-24
 | | Sally Simpson: Hi Saffuna,
Yeah you are right. Fischer - Benko 1963 would have been a good choice. Hi HeMateMe,
It was Spassky vs Bronstein, 1960 You are getting a wee bit confused with your own post from 13 years ago when you thought one of the players looked like Tal. Spassky vs Bronstein, 1960 (kibitz #257) |
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Feb-18-24
 | | HeMateMe: I thought the bad guy DID look like Tal! |
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Feb-18-24
 | | Joshka: <Sally Simpson> I agree with you, out of all the interviews this one with Carson is by far the most entertaining. I'm forever amazed every time I rewatch the interview how calm and at ease Bobby is with Carson. Then the mind blowing 25 second solving of that puzzle. He said he was the fasted, so they actually have tournaments where folks compete???
I think I'll vote for his skit with Bob Hope as the 2nd most entertaining...and then a close 3rd with Cavett showing how the pieces move along with his recall of the Petrosian position where he resigned and Bobby won the right to face Spassky. Still think there is another Cavett interview that's never been shown, am I right? thanks in advance!! |
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Feb-18-24
 | | Sally Simpson: Hi Josh,
I think I have seen them all but it would not surprise me if one was missing, he was hot TV for a while....I was wondering if he is the most mentioned player on here. I did a kibitzer search.
Fischer 10,181 pages
Kasparov 10,423 pages
Carlsen 17,198 pages.
Not too bad considering Fischer's last game here was played in 1992. (219 of those Fischer pages belong entirely to crazy Harry.) After this post add one to each player's total. |
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Feb-18-24 | | stone free or die: According to imdb <Fischer> was on <Dick Cavett> three times. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt006389... |
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Feb-19-24
 | | HeMateMe: the wonderful Suzanne Pleshette helped keep Bobby at ease. |
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Feb-19-24
 | | Knightf7mate: Here’s an interesting idea to use the silicon entities to rate players of different generations. You could feed a set of 100 wins, 100 draws and 100 losses for each of the following players: Morphy, Capablanca, Alekhine, Botvinik, Fischer, Karpov, Kasparov, Anand and Carlsen. The Chess Engine can rank the moves of each of the games. This would give you a three raw scores for each player. Using a simple average of the three scores you get the raw composite score. These scores can tell you how well a player scored when winning, losing and drawing and overall. Then you would calculate a weighted score based on the payer’s lifetime percentage of wins, draws and losses. What sets Alekhine, Capa, Lasker Kasparov and Fischer above the rest are their relatively higher shares of wins versus draws and losses. You might then add a longevity factor that would account for how long someone was competitive. This would elevate Kasparov in comparison to Fischer. What do the rest of you think about this idea? |
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Feb-19-24
 | | beatgiant: <Knightf7mate> There have been several such studies already, so we should first review what's been done. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compa... for a summary. |
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Feb-20-24
 | | HeMateMe: Don't Fischer, Carlsen, Karpov and Kramnik shine the brightest when the 'bots look at the quality of their games, accurate moves, unassailable wins? Perhaps Alekhine, Tal and Kasparov lose a bit of luster because successful defenses have been found in some of their games. |
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Feb-20-24
 | | beatgiant: <HeMateMe> In fact, Kasparov is usually near the top of these lists and a few spots ahead of Karpov. The idea that Alekhine's, Tal's and Kasparov's games (at their peaks) are full of unsound attacks is a mere stereotype and it's not what the bots show. |
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Feb-20-24
 | | keypusher: <beatgiant: <HeMateMe> In fact, Kasparov is usually near the top of these lists and a few spots ahead of Karpov. The idea that Alekhine's, Tal's and Kasparov's games (at their peaks) are full of unsound attacks is a mere stereotype and it's not what the bots show.> And if it were what the bots showed...Kasparov, Alekhine, and Tal were playing for victory, and not for the subsequent approval of computers. The best indicator of their strength is their results. |
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Feb-20-24 | | stone free or die: Nobody's mentioning <Jose <The Machine> Capablanca> in these discussions?! (Knightf7mate did, but then he somehow slipped beyond the horizon I guess) |
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Feb-20-24
 | | beatgiant: <stone free or die> The idea that Capablanca played with machine-like accuracy is also a stereotype. The studies tend to show that accuracy (measured by comparison with bots) has been improving through history. |
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Feb-20-24 | | stone free or die: <beat> given you other statements I thought you might say that too. But I distinctly remember reading pieces which put Capa at the top in terms of accuracy (and iirc Fischer was also another GM notable for being "more" accurate). Maybe I should try to find a ref.
What's the source for your impressions?
FWIW- I also have the opinion that Tal did have a tendency to play combinations so complicated he outplayed his opposition - but these combinations wouldn't be an engine's first choice. But this is just an impression I have, not exactly sure of it... . |
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Feb-20-24 | | stone free or die: <<Who was The Strongest Chess Player of All Time?> Computer Analysis of World Chess Champions
By Matej Guid and Ivan Bratko
University of Ljubljana, Faculty of Computer and Information Science, Artificial Intelligence Laboratory, Ljubljana, Slovenia. This article is based on a paper by the same authors published in the ICGA Journal; full reference is given below. Who is the best chess player of all time?
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The winner according to the main criterion, where we measured average deviations between evaluations of played moves and best evaluated moves according to the computer, is Jose Raul Capablanca, the 3rd World Champion. ...
Capablanca is renowned for playing a 'simple' chess and avoiding complications, while it is common that Steinitz and Tal faced many 'wild' positions in their games. The results of complexity measurement clearly coincide with this common opinion. ...
Kramnik, Fischer, and Alekhine had the highest percentage of best moves played, but also the above-mentioned difference was high. In contrast, Capablanca, who was right next regarding the percentage of the best move played, on average dealt with the smallest difference between the best two moves. The winner by this criterion was once again Capablanca. He and Kramnik again clearly outperformed the others.> https://web.archive.org/web/2013112... |
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Feb-20-24 | | stone free or die: RE: <chessbase article> It's from 2006:
<The original paper was published in the ICGA Journal, Vol 29, No. 2, June 2006, pages 65-73. It was also presented at the 5th International Conference on Computers and Games, May 29-31 2006, Turin, Italy, and was published in the proceedings book.> So by this time there should have been better studies done (or, even if not better, that also include Carlsen in his prime). |
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Feb-20-24
 | | beatgiant: <stone free or die> I gave the link above for the summary in Wikipedia but no, I didn't take my own advice and do my own independent survey of this literature, of which there's already quite a bit. Here's a source for the "Capa was most accurate" claim: https://en.chessbase.com/post/compu... The catch is, that effect goes away when you account for the complexity of positions: he made fewer mistakes because he had easier positions in his games, meaning his opponents weren't as challenging as those of some of the others being studied. That's why more recent studies typically use complexity factors. It goes to show what we always find in these GOAT discussions: it all depends on one's criteria and methodologies. |
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Feb-20-24 | | stone free or die: Well, if nothing else I found another technical article which I may never understand: https://content.iospress.com/articl... I think it's a fun discussion, but there's always the danger of getting in over my head. I agree with your assessment ("it all depends"). Cheers. |
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Feb-24-24
 | | HeMateMe: I like 2020 Magnus Carlsen beating 1972 Bobby Fischer in a 24-game match 13-11. 20 draws and four decisive games, which Magnus wins 3-1. AND, I don't want to hear any arguments about this.... |
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Feb-25-24
 | | Knightf7mate: Good discussion. No, I didn’t know of this wiki article because I did slip over the horizon for a bit. Looks like lots of people have already put computers to this task. So riddle me this - how to account for the large number of draws by Carlsen compared to Kasparov and Fischer. |
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Feb-25-24
 | | HeMateMe: <how to account for the large number of draws by Carlsen compared to Kasparov and Fischer.> in the age of Magnus Carlsen chess theory has advanced. the very best players find it harder and harder to create an advantage in the first 20 moves, when playing against each other. |
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Feb-25-24
 | | harrylime: The Bio on this page is ridiculously short. Just sayin |
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Feb-25-24
 | | perfidious: Carlsen plays a higher percentage of his games against elite opponents than Fischer or even Kasparov ever did, a state of affairs virtually guaranteed to happen due to smaller round robin events being the norm nowadays. |
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Feb-25-24
 | | harrylime: <<HeMateMe: <how to account for the large number of draws by Carlsen compared to Kasparov and Fischer.>
in the age of Magnus Carlsen chess theory has advanced. the very best players find it harder and harder to create an advantage in the first 20 moves, when playing against each other.>> This is soft garbage .
Yet you continue to spew this on this site.
Capa or Alekhine could easily ... and I mean easily ... compete with ANYBODY this very day ... Your narrative is in YOUR head. |
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