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Aug-13-09 | | Gypsy: Btw, all Steinitz's WC matches were to 10 wins; and each had either a 9:9 draw clause (e.g., Steinitz-Gunsberg) or a 9:9 extension clause (e.g., in Steinitz-Chigorin II, to additional 3 wins). |
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Aug-13-09 | | Capabal: Aug-12-09 <A Karpov Fan>: Yes, good points. One way or another Fischer was never going to play that match though, he was clever enough to know the 10-8 clause was totally unfair, but then that suited his purposes just fine.
<WhiteRook48>: so Fischer lost confidence?
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The clause was blatantly unfair. Whether Fischer lost confidence in his ability to beat Karpov is hard to tell. It may be that the mere shadow of a slightest doubt was too much for him to bear. At any rate, insisting on such a clause does not suggest that he was cocksure of his ability to beat Karpov - since he was obviously worried that Karpov could keep up with him and get 9 wins at the same time as him, or earlier. Maybe Fischer was not justified in feeling this way (he was not the most well-balanced individual), but then again maybe he was justified. After all, even if he didn't play since 72, his entire life was chess, and he certainly must have gone through Karpov's games in great detail. Kasparov suggests that this is precisely what freaked him out, especially the games of Karpov's match with Spassky in 74. We will never know. But if Fischer had thought Karpov was overwhelmingly inferior to him, he would not have gone to such extent to boicot the match. Because that's what he did. |
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Aug-14-09 | | ozmikey: The 9-9 tie clause in Steinitz's matches and the 5-5 tie clause in the Capa-Alekhine match (which is disputed, but I think did exist) were from the era when challengers didn't have to go through the incredibly gruelling process of qualifying. Given that the (modern) challengers had to get through all that while the champion could just rest until the match itself, I think the 9-9 clause was a bit much in Fischer's case. Having said that, it isn't THAT much more of an advantage than the "12-12 draw, champion retains his title" rule which kept Botvinnik on the throne in 1951 and 1954 (and Kasparov in 1987, for that matter). |
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Aug-14-09 | | Gypsy: <Having said that, it isn't THAT much more of an advantage than the "12-12 draw, champion retains his title" rule > Numerically, the draw-odds in a 24-game match depend on the frequency of draws. It is actually not a bad idea that people who want to discuss this issue get some feel for the subject. For instance, it is fairly easy to set up these quick-and-dirty numerical simulations: (1) Ignore the difference between playing with White and Black pieces and assume independence between the games. Also assume that the two players are evenly matched and, therefore, a win can be assigned to either player with equal probability. (2) Generate random sequences of wins and draws; tabulate the empirical statistics. Simulations like that can be used to answer many questions about the WC formats. For instance, long matches have intuitively been justified by the desire to prevent 'fluke champions'. Indeed, the longer the expected length of the match, the less probability of an 'undeserving champion' there is. But it is surprising how slowly the gains are made after about the initial 14 games. |
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Aug-15-09 | | Capabal: LOL. Gypsy, If you presuppose that the players are *evenly matched* such that “a win can be assigned to either player with equal probabilityâ€, then a 12-12 drawn match will always be the most likely result of any such simulation. What else could it be? Draws in chess these days are about 60 percent of games. So in a 24-game match, about 14 games can be expected to be draws (assuming your “evenly matched playersâ€). And if the remaining 10 games can also be won by either player with *equal probability*, well then the match can be expected to end 12-12. What else would you expect? The discussions regarding the two main match formats (24-game match, vs first player to reach 6 wins) had to do with theoretical attempts to discourage draws. It was said by some that the 24-game format encourages the player in the lead to try to coast by just playing for a draw, and it was assumed that playing to 6 wins, with draws counting for nothing, would alleviate this. The exact opposite is what happened. The 1984 WC match between Karpov and Kasparov became a drawing nightmare. Draws constituted a full 83% of the matches played there. For the first 10 games, the draw average was about normal (60%), and Karpov was up 4-0. Then it seemed that Kasparov decided his best strategy was to hunker down and turn it into a contest of long-term stamina by playing for draws (Had this been part of a classic 24 game match, even with that strategy the match would have ended after only 20 games with the score of 12-8.) It seemed to work. 5 months and 40 games later Karpov looked like a ghost, had lost a lot of weight, and was described as being on the verge of a physical collapse. If this is what happened in a match to 6 wins that went on from September to February, and then was cancelled, you can imagine what could happen in a match to 9 wins. It could maybe last a year. Clearly not a very practical format. But what is important to remember is this. In a match to a limited number of games, where draws count as half points, a tied match is an inevitable possibility. It comes with the territory. For the match to be of limited duration, a drawn game must count for something, and so it counts half a point. It is simply the small price to pay for the well-defined time frame this format offers. So it makes sense that in the case of a tied match, the champion retains the title. In a match to a limited number of wins, where draws don’t count, there is no way of limiting or predicting the total number of games it will take to achieve those wins. (The 9-9 clause does not help solve this problem.) Therefore, the notion of a "tie" when both players reach a given number of wins is a completely artificial construct totally unnecessary to this format, and introduced solely for the purpose of giving the champion an additional advantage (additional to the already great advantage of not having to play any earlier rounds like the others). John Nunn made some comments on the “draw problem†a few years ago:
http://tinyurl.com/m552bm
Excerpt
[...]
There are two versions to this complaint: one is to take issue with draws in general, and the other is to object to the frequency of short draws.
I have little sympathy with the first version. The draw has always been part of chess, and most people believe that if a game is played correctly by both sides then a draw is the inevitable result. If someone doesn’t like draws in chess, then perhaps they should take up another game in which draws are less frequent or non-existent. It is unreasonable to insist that a game which has given pleasure to millions over a period of centuries should be fundamentally changed merely because someone has a phobia about draws.
On the other hand, to complain about short, peaceful draws is in many cases valid. Chess is one of the few sports or games in which the players can at any moment simply agree not to continue the game. This is a privilege which should not be abused.
[...] |
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Aug-15-09 | | Gypsy: <Capabal: LOL. Gypsy, If you presuppose that the players are *evenly matched* such that “a win can be assigned to either player with equal probabilityâ€, then a 12-12 drawn match will always be the most likely result of any such simulation. What else could it be? Draws in chess these days are about 60 percent of games. So in a 24-game match, about 14 games can be expected to be draws (assuming your “evenly matched playersâ€). And if the remaining 10 games can also be won by either player with *equal probability*, well then the match can be expected to end 12-12. What else would you expect? ... > Ok, we ought to be a little bit careful with statistical concepts: In the scenario you describe (14 draws, 10 decisive games, evenly matched players), the probability that the standing champion retains the title is <~62.3%> -- in other words, roughly <5:3> odds in favor of the standing champion. (The probability of a drawn match in the said case is ... (10 choose 5)/2^10 = 252/1024 = 24.31% ... ~1/4; the probability of a decisive match is ... ~3/4.) |
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Aug-15-09 | | Gypsy: Btw -- before I disappear for a couple of weeks -- I think that a reasonable format for the modern era would be something like this: (1) A match to 14-games with 'classical' time controls; it goes to a tie-breaker if tied. (2) The tiebreaker:
(i) 1-3 games.
(ii) One side gets the draw odds, the other side gets the white pieces and/or extra time on the clock. (iii) Lower limit on the time would be 1/2 hour a game and side. (Upper limit would be the classical time control.) (iv) Challenger specifies the preferred tie-breaking format within the given parameters. The champion then chooses whether he/she goes with the draws odds or with whatever the other compensation is. |
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Aug-15-09 | | tedceldor: Fischer is a great player, but in my opinion with his attitude towards his title defense against Karpov, it seemed like he was afraid of losing. Style also has a lot to do in a match. Maybe Karpov's spider web technique would be a great factor against fischer's anti positional style. No offense, just an opinion. |
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Aug-15-09 | | DWINS: <tedceldor>, Can you explain what you mean by <fischer's anti positional style>? |
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Aug-17-09 | | Capabal: <gypsy>
<<Ok, we ought to be a little bit careful with statistical concepts: In the scenario you describe (14 draws, 10 decisive games, evenly matched players), the probability that the standing champion retains the title is <~62.3%> -- in other words, roughly <5:3> odds in favor of the standing champion.>><<(The probability of a drawn match in the said case is ... (10 choose 5)/2^10 = 252/1024 = 24.31% ... ~1/4; the probability of a decisive match is ... ~3/4.)>>
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Yes, but what I was saying is that 12-12 in this scenario (players of equal strength) should still be the most frequent outcome or final score. I imagine if you plotted the frequency of each possible final score, you would get a bell-shaped curve. So at the top of the curve you would have 12-12 as the most frequent final score, and all the other scores a bit lower, to either side. The curve would be asymetrical because of the fact that one player needs to reach 12.5 for the match to end, while the other only needs 12. I really don’t know much about statistics, but it seems to me it should be something like this. It would be interesting to find out how the advantage of the champion in this scenario compares with the advantage he would have in the case of a match to 6 wins with a 5-5 ending the match, and 10 wins with a 9-9 ending the match. |
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Aug-17-09 | | SetNoEscapeOn: <DWINS: <tedceldor>, Can you explain what you mean by <fischer's anti positional style>?> Such an explanation might prove to be hard to come by, since many grandmasters think Fischer was first and foremost a phenomenal positional player. Obviously he attained great mastery over every aspect of the game, but he inherited and expanded Capablanca's legacy, not Alekhine's. |
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Aug-18-09 | | Capabal: <<tedceldor: Fischer is a great player, but in my opinion with his attitude towards his title defense against Karpov, it seemed like he was afraid of losing. Style also has a lot to do in a match. Maybe Karpov's spider web technique would be a great factor against fischer's anti positional style. No offense, just an opinion.>> <<DWINS: <tedceldor>, Can you explain what you mean by <fischer's anti positional style>?>> In attempts to classify players styles, Fischer was sometimes described as being prone to making “antipositional” moves in the sense they use this word today to describe some computer moves. These would be moves that seem to run counter to basic positional principles. In the recent book by Kasparov http://tinyurl.com/rcxvl8 where he analyzes and tells the story surrounding all his encounters with Karpov, there is a quote from Petrosian to the effect that each grandmaster is always an amalgam of styles. He says something like (I am quoting by memory): Tal is not only “sacrifice” Petrosian is not only "caution", Capablanca is not only "position" and Fischer is not only "electronic computer chesss". So it seems that Fischer had some kind of reputation for making computer-looking moves, which today are sometimes described as "antipositional". That’s an excellent book, by the way, full of quotes by many people on Kasparov’s and Karpov’s development as players, their strengths, their approach to chess etc. |
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Aug-18-09 | | parisattack: <SetNoEscapeOn: <DWINS: <tedceldor>, Can you explain what you mean by <fischer's anti positional style>?>
Such an explanation might prove to be hard to come by, since many grandmasters think Fischer was first and foremost a phenomenal positional player. Obviously he attained great mastery over every aspect of the game, but he inherited and expanded Capablanca's legacy, not Alekhine's.> That Fischer was first and foremost a positional player is masked by his sharp openings and drive for the initiative. Unlike Capablanca and Rubinstein who essentially waited for a weakness to exploit, Fischer actively pursued creating them with tactics. There are so many Fischer games where his opponent seems not to be in the game at all but just a foil for Fischer's genius. Sorry for going off-topic, Anatoly! |
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Aug-30-09 | | TheMacMan: anyone think he'll crush Kasparov in their upcomming games? |
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Aug-31-09
 | | HeMateMe: I think it will be a bit more like the '92 Spassky/Fischer rematch. More mistakes, Less bold play in the openings, and the younger player will win decisively. |
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Sep-01-09 | | TheMacMan: well people said the same when they had their rapid games in 2001, and kasparov isnt a very good blitz player, not as good as karpov whos record is better in blitz so im gonna put all my money on karpov! |
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Sep-01-09 | | TheFocus: I have never thought that the conditions set by Fischer were that unfair. Sure, he had to get to 10 to win, but only to 9 to draw; but the opponent also had to get 10 to win, but he could still go on if he was in the lead with 9. I believe that Fischer KNEW that no match with him would get to a 9-9 draw. That was the point - for the players to get in there and win, unlike the fake Karpov - Kasparov match where they played the same draw day after day. What a cowardly way to play chess. Neither one even tried to win games or employ sharper tactics - just draw after draw with the same moves. They should have just telephoned in their moves, or just sat down, shook hands, declared the unplayed game a draw and gone home. Oh, wait, that is basically what they did, just with the pretense of actually playing some moves. |
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Sep-01-09 | | TheFocus: I believe that the first Karpov - Kasparov was rigged so that the Soviet Union could say, "See, an unlimited games match would last for months. So, we have now proved that Fischer was wrong!" But, in a match with Fischer, it would not have gone on and on, because he at least would be trying to win, not draw. And if you only come to get a draw like the K's did, then sure it will last forever. And, Karpov with a 5 win lead couldn't muster up the courage to try and get another win, even if he lost a couple of games? Where was his fighting courage? Certainly not at the chessboard! I like Karpov's and Kasparov's games, but in this match, the fix was on, just as Fischer said. |
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Sep-01-09 | | akapovsky: where do you people keep coming from?Please post on fischer on it's corresponding page,I think a majority would careless about fischer's idiotic statements. |
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Sep-01-09
 | | HeMateMe: <akapovsky: where do you people keep coming from?> A lot of us are from District 9. It's not much, but there's no rent. |
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Sep-03-09 | | TheMacMan: i agree the kasparov karpov games were easily fixed and its easy to see |
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Sep-03-09 | | TylerD: GRATEFUL FOR HELP:
Which player was it that played a famous game which was won without any piece exchange? In the final position not a single piece had left the board - yet the opponent resigned due to the hopeless situation... I have forgotten who it was that was able to win such a game... was it Karpov, Nimzowitsch, Reti...? Or somebody else? Very grateful for help in finding that extraordinary game... |
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Sep-03-09 | | ozmikey: <TylerD> You might be thinking of this one: A Medina-Garcia vs Gligoric, 1968 |
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Sep-03-09 | | Zzyw: <TylerD> The longest decisive game without any captures can be found here: Nuber vs Keckeisen, 1994 |
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Sep-03-09 | | jussu: I agree that hilarious conspiracy theories would fit Fischer's page much better. |
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