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Jul-01-06 | | lblai: Some information about Lasa can be found right here at Baron Tassilo Heydebrand und der Lasa
Also, see http://groups.google.com/group/rec.... |
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Jul-01-06 | | SBC: And about The Pleiades in general here: http://batgirl.atspace.com/Pleiades... |
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Jul-07-06 | | RookFile: SBC, I have question for you. On your web site, it says that Morphy's father left an estate of of $146,162.54 upon his death. Who received this inheritence? Paul Morphy, or someone else? Thank you. |
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Jul-07-06 | | lblai: It is probably better to pose this question at Paul Morphy . |
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Jul-07-06 | | SBC: <RookFile>
A lot of people automatically assume that this money was Paul's inheritance. While no where that I know is it stated how much of an inheritance he received personally, he undoubtedly didn't receive his father's entire estate. His mother would have received the bulk of it, with Paul, his brother and two sisters each receiving a child's portion. But another factor to consider is that of the famous $146,162.54, about $88,000 was in real estate and about $7,500 in accounts receivable - money that had to be collected. (see- http://batgirl.atspace.com/AlonzoEs...)
Even Paul's share may not have gone to him until he reached a certain age. What is clear is that his brother-in-law, John Darius Sybrandt, was the administrator (though how he got this position, I have no idea) of the funds in the estate. Since Paul tried to sue Sybrandt for mismanagement of his portion of the inheritance, it seems likely to me that whatever Paul spent was paid for by the estate and recorded in a ledger. Then, at some point he couldn't understand how his balance had dwindled and could only deduce that his money had been either mismanaged or stolen. Does that help?
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Jul-07-06 | | SBC: <RookFile>
By the way, keep up your free-thinking ways. Although I don't always agree with some of your conclusions, I do enjoy your flow of reasoning. |
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Jul-07-06 | | RookFile: Thank you SBC. I was actually going to say the same thing about you.
Now: Iblai doesn't see the point of this yet - after all, this is a page about Steinitz, and here we are talking about Morphy's inheritence. However, I think you see the point. $146,000 is a staggering amount of money in 1857, or whatever year this was. To get an idea of just how staggering, we can consult an Inflation Calculator, such as this one: http://www.westegg.com/inflation/
Typing in 146,000 for 1857, and the end year as 2005, we see a 2005 equivalent of 2,999,171.03. The point is: any way this money is split up, Morphy probably at a minimum is receiving $500,000 in today's terms of money that is either his own, or that he will be re-imbursed for if he spends. Therefore: <trumpets blaring>, in connection with our earlier discussion, as to whether Morphy could financially afford to offer pawn and move to anyone in the world, for any stakes whatsoever, (Steinitz included) - can we agree now that the lack of financial resources on Morphy's part to make such an offer is no longer a consideration? |
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Jul-08-06 | | SBC: <RookFile>
I don't think obtaining money was, or ever would be, an issue with Morphy playing chess. Even without his own funds, he had plenty of folks who would back him. The problem with Morphy wasn't getting the money, but getting around his no public chess agreement with his mother and his own belief that chess should not be played for money. |
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Jul-08-06 | | lblai: Again, in 1859 (the year of the Morphy "Pawn and move" announcement), Steinitz did not have much of a reputation as a chessplayer. It seems that by 1863 Morphy was pretty well set on his personal no-more-matches rule, and publicly indicating this. An 1866 chess magazine mentioned that "Mr. Morphy no longer considers himself a chessplayer". 1866, of course, was the year that Steinitz had his famous success against Anderssen. In view of this, it seems unlikely that there was ever much serious thought given to the possibility of a Morphy-Steinitz match. Over the last four weeks, I have not seen anyone argue here that Morphy could not have financially afforded "to offer pawn and move to anyone in the world, for any stakes whatsoever", although it is not unreasonable to pose the question (at Paul Morphy). Morphy himself referred to his "share" of the $146,162.54, but it does not appear that he had access to that kind of money during his first trip to Europe. (He wrote to Fiske, asking for help with obtaining the funds for the contemplated Staunton match.) I would guess that financial support could have been obtained for a match at odds between Morphy and Anderssen (for example), but I do not see any way to be sure about something like that. The real argument against a supposed Morphy offer of "pawn and move to anyone in the world, for any stakes whatsoever" is the absence of any known record of such an offer. My instinct is that, if there had been such a challenge, it would have received a lot of attention at the time, and there would be no trouble finding a record of it. Also, there is the matter of Morphy's growing "antipathy to chess" and resistance to playing for money. |
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Jul-08-06 | | SBC: Steinitz, of course, was never a serious opponent for Morphy since he emerged too late. As for funds for a match (with anyone), it seems likely Morphy could get backing. As with his intended match with Staunton - "...without mentioning Englishmen, Morphy could be backed against Staunton for £10,000, and the money be raised in twenty-four hours. I mentioned this fact to a noble lady in Paris, in order to show the confidence in which the young American was held, and she replied, "Oh, as regards that, you may tell Mr. Morphy from me, that for £10,000 against Mr. Staunton *or any player in Europe*, he must not go further than my house." -Edge |
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Jul-10-06 | | lblai: Back on Jun-18-06, someone asked what Fischer thought about Steinitz. Fischer DID include Steinitz in his famous 1960s ten-best list. As for the availability of people willing to put up money for Morphy, it seems to me to be at least possible that funds might have been harder to obtain for a match GIVING ODDS to Anderssen. |
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Jul-10-06 | | SBC: In Frank Brady's Chessworld magazine, Vol. 1, No. 1, Jan.-Feb. 1964, RJ Fischer gave his list of "The 10 Greatest Players of all Time." Steinitz was listed as #3, after Morphy and Staunton (though there doesn't seem to have been any ranking intended by the order). Of Steinitz, Fischer wrote, "He always sought completely original lines and didn't mind getting into cramped quarters if he thought that his position was essentially sound." At another time Ficher said, "He [Steinitz] is the so-called father of the modern school of chess; before him, the King was considered a weak piece and players set out to attack the King directly. Steinitz claimed that the King was well able to take care of itself, and ought not to be attacked until one had some other positional advantage. He understood more about the use of squares than Morphy and contributed a great deal more to chess theory." Chessworld was underfunded and only lasted three issues. http://batgirl.atspace.com/TopTen.h...
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Jul-10-06 | | RookFile: Iblai: I was responding to something earlier in this thread about Steinitz. You'd have to go back a bit to see it. However, it's not really a big deal, all sides are in agreement now that essentially if Morphy wanted any type of chess match, there would be absolutely no finincial problems of any kind whatever for Morphy. |
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Jul-10-06 | | RookFile: Interestingly enough, Chigorin also made Fischer's list. |
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Jul-10-06 | | lblai: My "side" on the financial question would be more accurately described by what I wrote: "I would guess that financial support could have been obtained for a match at odds between Morphy and Anderssen (for example), but I do not see any way to be sure about something like that." Moreover, I was writing about 1859. It is another matter to consider what might have happened in 1866 or 1883 if Morphy had expressed any willingness to play at such times. |
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Jul-10-06 | | RookFile: lblai, no worries, it wasn't your quote being discussed. |
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Jul-17-06
 | | offramp: Here is an interesting table:
Name / First serious game / Year he became WC / gap
Steinitz, 1859, 1886, 17
Lasker, 1889, 1894, 5
Capablanca, 1911, 1921, 10
Alekhine, 1907, 1927, 20
Euwe, 1919, 1935, 16
Botvinnik, 1925, 1948, 23
Smyslov, 1938, 1957, 19
Tal, 1955, 1960, 5
Petrosian, 1947, 1963, 16
Spassky, 1953, 1966, 13
Fischer, 1956, 1972, 16
Karpov, 1965, 1975, 10
Kasparov, 1976, 1985, 9
Kramnik, 1988, 2000, 12
Topalov, 1989, 2005, 16 |
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Jul-17-06
 | | offramp: Sorry; Steinitz's gap should be 27 years. |
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Jul-17-06 | | whatthefat: Interesting. How did you define "first serious game" though? |
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Jul-17-06
 | | offramp: <whatthefat: Interesting. How did you define "first serious game" though?> I think it'll be close to within about a year for all of them; I know it is not perfect. It doesn't mean much anyway! I really did it out of my own curiosity, but I thought I'd post it here... I am hoping others will nail down some of the dates in column 2. |
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Jul-17-06 | | lblai: The year Steinitz became world champion is one of those traditional debate topics (arising, in my opinion, primarily because of different perceptions about what it means to be world champion). If one uses 1886 as the year, then it has to be kept in mind that the basis for that choice is that it was the first time that Steinitz won a much that was announced IN ADVANCE as being for the world championship. It may well be (indeed it seems likely) that he would have won such a match earlier if there had been one earlier. |
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Jul-17-06 | | whatthefat: <offramp>
In Tal's case, one should go back to 1951 at the latest for the "first serious game", since he competed in the finals of the Latvian championship for the first time that year. |
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Jul-17-06 | | lblai: For Spassky, "1966" should be "1969". |
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Jul-18-06 | | lblai: I just noticed that, on this page, the biography states that Steinitz "was recognized as the world's leading player after he defeated Adolf Anderssen in a match in 1866". In fact, in several investigations of this matter, nobody was able to produce any record of such recognition that was earlier than the 1870s. See, for example, the Steinitz entry of the Oxford Companion and page 135 of Chess Facts and Fables. |
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Jul-18-06
 | | keypusher: <offramp> interesting table! For Capablanca, I would think the first year should be 1909 for the Marshall match, or maybe 1900 for the Corzo match?! |
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