< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 11 OF 48 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Mar-30-05
 | | keypusher: The ultimate example would be a match between the two, actually. Thanks to Morphy, there never was one. |
|
Mar-30-05 | | RookFile: Sure! Because Steinitz would not allow Morphy to give him pawn and move, to even up the odds! |
|
Mar-30-05 | | hintza: <BishopBerkeley> Thanks for those links to the photographs, I loved looking at especially those of Steinitz-Lasker and Morphy-Loewenthal. |
|
Mar-30-05
 | | keypusher: This common opponents argument is nonsense anyway, especially given the size of the sample. In the Staunton-Harrwitz match Staunton conceded odds of pawn and move or pawn and two moves in fourteen out of the 21 games. Nevertheless, he won the match easily, including +7-0=0 in the games not at odds. Morphy's record against Harrwitz was an unimpressive +5-3=1. Good thing the Staunton-Morphy match never happened. Staunton would have crushed him, right? |
|
Mar-30-05 | | RookFile: Apparently, a sample size of
30 games is not enough for you.
You know, the 30 games that
Anderssen and Steinitz played,
a series that was WON by Anderssen?
( Meanwhile, Morphy beat him 12
to 3... think if they played 15
more games, Anderssen is suddenly
going to win, 13 to 2? )
The Harrwitz - Staunton games are
not particularly interesting, because
Harrwitz had just started playing
the year before. By 1858, Harrwitz
was a battle hardened veteran,
having played a number of tough guys
such as Anderssen over intervening
13 years.
This game amuses me. An old Anderssen, who would be DEAD only
6 years later, still outcalculates
the young stars of the day:
Steinitz / Bird / Blackburne vs Adolf Anderssen, 1873 |
|
Mar-30-05
 | | BishopBerkeley: You are quite welcome, <hintza>! |
|
Mar-30-05 | | RookFile: By the way, you forgot to mention
that there are some games worthy
of consideration for a Staunton vs.
Morphy match, both won by Morphy,
of course:
Morphy / Barnes vs Staunton / Owen, 1858
Staunton / Owen vs Morphy / Barnes, 1858 |
|
Mar-30-05
 | | keypusher: I don't really think Staunton would have crushed Morphy, obviously; I was just giving an example how weak the common opponents argument is. |
|
Mar-30-05 | | RookFile: So how many games did Anderssen
need to play, and demonstrate
a superiority over Steinitz, for
the common oppoents argument to be
valid? 30 is not enough? |
|
Mar-30-05
 | | keypusher: Anderssen didn't demonstrate his superiority, first of all. He won the first several games between them early in Steinitz's career. When they played a match, although Steinitz was years away from his best form, Steinitz beat him. Find 100 chess masters knowledgeable about chess and ask them if they think Anderssen was superior to Steinitz. I doubt you'll find five who think Anderssen was better. Second of all, the fact that Player A does better against player C than Player B does does not prove that Player A is better than Player B. Harrwitz-Staunton-Morphy is a counterexample. Geller-Spassky-Fischer is another. Obviously if some master beats me ten straight, and then I beat you ten straight, then it's probably a good bet that the master is better than you are. But that isn't what happened with Anderssen, Steinitz and Morphy. Also, when I referred to sample size, I was talking about the number of common opponents, not the number of games, since as no doubt is well known to you, some players do better or worse against particular opponents. You don't think Polugaevsky is better than Karpov, do you? You shouldn't; his lifetime score against Karpov is +0-8=22. But you would think Polugaevsky was better if you only looked at their respective records against Tal. |
|
Mar-30-05 | | Gypsy: < Steinitz had rivals like Anderssen and later Blackburne and Zuckertort, all whom probably surpassed him in natural ability for chess. His general theory was so profound, however, that he defeated all of them in their matches with him. ... > Richard Reti |
|
Mar-30-05 | | RookFile: Actually, the Anderssen games against
Steinitz where played long after
Anderssen's peak, which is commonly
acknowledged to be 1851. Notwithstanding the fact that Steinitz played a sub par Anderrsen,
Anderssen enjoyed a lifetime plus
score against Steinitz. |
|
Mar-31-05 | | percyblakeney: Chessmetrics have Anderssen as 2516 after winning the London tournament 1851, and as 2570 when playing Morphy. However, he peaks in 1870 with 2744. This may be interpreted in various ways, but Anderssen being sub par when he played Steinitz as compared to when he played Morphy is not seen as a fact by everyone. That Steinitz was much better in the late 1870's and 1880's than when he played Anderssen could probably be called a fact, though. |
|
Mar-31-05 | | RookFile: Yes, sure, and these are the
same people that think Zukertort
is stronger than Petrosian. What
a joke, did Zukertort ever beat anybody? All Petrosian did was WIN matches against Botvinnik and Spassky for the World Championship. Maybe I should play over the game
where Steinitz lost to Maurian, again.
Don't know how many open games of Steinitz's we need to play over, where he literally gets pounded, before it's considered safe to conclude that he wouldn't have a prayer against Morphy. |
|
Apr-01-05 | | percyblakeney: You're not the only one to think that Steinitz would have lost clearly against Morphy. Chessmetrics may claim that Anderssen was at his worst form for his last almost 30 years the year he played Morphy, but not everyone agrees with it, and I think few Morphy fans agree with his position here: http://www.chessmetrics.com/CM2/Pea... |
|
Apr-01-05
 | | keypusher: I don't think Chessmetrics claims that Anderssen was at his worst form in 30 years when he played Morphy, <percyblakeney>. I don't have any idea how a Morphy-Steintz match would have turned out, although I am pretty confident that Morphy would have crushed him in 1862 and beaten him in 1866. I think by 1873 (when he won sixteen straight against the strongest masters in Europe) or 1876 (when he beat Blackburne 7-0) Steinitz was stronger than Morphy ever was, but if Morphy had kept playing there is no telling how good he would have gotten, or how his style would have developed. He didn't work at his game like Steinitz did, partly because no one really pushed him, partly because he was lazy. There is an obvious parallel between Morphy-Steinitz and Fischer-Karpov. Love him or hate him, Steinitz played and beat everybody out there, just like Karpov did. It isn't their fault that the men that could have been their greatest opponents decided to stop playing. Given that Morphy and Fischer abandoned the game, I don't understand why they are idolized. It is hard enough to gauge Fischer's true strength, given his truncated international career and the fact that he never played Karpov, clearly stronger than anyone he did play. With Morphy it's impossible. He played three serious matches and one (weak) tournament -- about 50 games. None of his opponents played at a level close to as good as Steinitz eventually became. And <RookFile>, if you want to dispute that, don't just go by scores. Play through the Anderssen-Morphy 1858 match games and the Anderssen-Steinitz 1866 match games and tell me when Anderssen played better. (And no facile remarks about how "Mr. Morphy won't let me" play well.) |
|
Apr-01-05 | | RookFile: Steinitz could have played Morphy
if he wanted to. Paul Morphy issued a challenge to the entire world to play anyone at the odds of pawn and move for any stake whatsoever. Steinitz merely had to accept Morphy's offer. Considering that in his visit to Lousiana, Steinitz lost to Maurian, who Morphy used to give knight odds to, it is very understandable why Morphy felt that he could have toyed with Steinitz. |
|
Apr-01-05 | | iron maiden: <Paul Morphy issued a challenge to the entire world to play anyone at the odds of pawn and move for any stake whatsoever.> And then when Steinitz came along, Morphy refused to meet him. |
|
Apr-01-05 | | RookFile: That is absolutely not true, iron
maiden. Not only did Morphy and
Steinitz meet, but Steinitz praised
Morphy as quite an interesting guy
to talk to. No, the problem was, Steinitz wanted to play Morphy at
even odds, instead of correctly realizing that he needed to play
him by allowing Morphy to give him pawn and move.
I mean, imagine you're Morphy. You've traveled the world, and have beat the best with percentages upwards of 75 percent. Some guy
shows up and says he wants to play
you at full strength, rather than
at the pawn and move you've offered.
While you're thinking about this, your
friend, Maurian plays him down the
street from where you live. Maurian
comes over and shows you this game:
Steinitz vs Maurian, 1883
So, maybe Morphy thought he needed to
offer Steinitz knight odds, instead
of pawn and move. After all, that's
what he used to give Maurian. |
|
Apr-01-05 | | iron maiden: I'm willing to bet Morphy was never shown that Maurian game, since he was dead and buried by 1883. It's also worth considering that at that time, there were those who seriously argued that pawn and move was an advantage for Black because they allowed an early attack along the f-file. |
|
Apr-01-05 | | RookFile: When Steinitz met Morphy in 1883,
Steinitz said: “Morphy is a most
interesting man to talk to. He is
shrewd and practical and apparently
in excellent health.”
Unfortunately for Steinitz, he then goes out and loses to Morphy's
best friend, and punching bag,
in a full odds game.
So, you're Morphy, and you see this.
You tell me what he's supposed to
think?
Morphy would die later, at the
age of 47, on July 10, 1884. |
|
Apr-01-05 | | iron maiden: You're right, my mistake, he died in 1884. I'm surprised, btw, that you've completely ignored games like this one: Steinitz vs Maurian, 1883. Not to mention that when evaluating the strength of two chess players, the value of individual results against a third party are questionable at best. Was Kasparov a clearly worse player than Fischer because he had an inferior lifetime score against Petrosian? |
|
Apr-01-05
 | | keypusher: When discussing Morphy, it is always wise to consult <SBC>. Morphy made his famous challenge to the world to play at pawn and move in 1859, when Steinitz was cutting his teeth back in Vienna. http://batgirl.atspace.com/morphybi...
Morphy agreed to meet Steinitz in 1883 on the condition that chess not be mentioned. There was no possibility of Morphy playing a match with Steinitz at that time, and Steinitz is not to blame for not accepting a (very insulting) offer that was no longer extant. |
|
Apr-01-05 | | percyblakeney: <I don't think Chessmetrics claims that Anderssen was at his worst form in 30 years when he played Morphy> Well, from the end of 1851 to 1879 he's got his lowest rating just before he played Morphy, at the end of 1858... But I agree with your posts, <keypusher>. |
|
Apr-01-05 | | RookFile: Sure, I knew about Steinitz's win
against Maurian, have no problem
with saying that Steinitz was the
best player in the world after Morphy
died.
When you think about it, this was
the opposite situation of what Morphy
ran into with Staunton. Morphy
was the traveler, in this case, Steinitz was.
Morphy beat everybody: Steinitz split a
couple of games with the White pieces
against a punching bag. Staunton was
afraid to play Morphy - Morphy was
bored with Steinitz, and felt that the
biggest problem was to determine what
degree of odds to give Steinitz. Finally,
Staunton had hurled the ultimate
insult at Morphy: he called Morphy
a professional chess player, who
was only good because that's all he
did. Steinitz of course would have
had no problems had Staunton said
this to him. What Morphy felt instead
was that essentially, he
regarded Steinitz as a duffer, and if
he was less of a gentleman, I suspect
he would have come right out and said so.
When Paul Morphy died in 1884, he
could have scarcely believed that
a myth would developed that Steintz
would be called the father of modern
chess. That myth was started by Lasker,
who needed to puff up Steinitz, whom
he had beaten, to give his title some
legitimacy.
As far as original ideas go, I think
Chigorin is a far more interesting player
than Steinitz. |
|
 |
 |
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 11 OF 48 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
|
|
|