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Jun-27-09
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| just a kid: Ok.He is the greatest never to become world champion. |
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| Jun-27-09 |
| Shams: Of both Keres and Korchnoi I think it could be argued they were at one time the strongest player in the world; can the same be said of Rubinstein? |
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Jun-27-09
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| just a kid: I think that in 1912 that rubinstein could be considered the best player in the world. |
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Jun-27-09
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| Bridgeburner: Chessmetrics rated Rubinstein as number one for a total of 25 months between May 1908 and April 1914. http://db.chessmetrics.com/CM2/Play... |
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| Jun-27-09 |
| Dredge Rivers: <just a kid> <I think that in 1912 that Rubinstein could be considered the best player in the world.> No, he'd be about #3 behind Lasker and Capablanca. Chessmetrics is full of it! |
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Jun-27-09
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| dx9293: <Dredge Rivers: No, he'd be about #3 behind Lasker and Capablanca. Chessmetrics is full of it!> No, I also think Rubinstein would be #1 circa 1912. |
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Jun-27-09
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| percyblakeney: If Rubinstein ever was #1 "for real" it must have been for a rather short period. In 1911 he played two events, he shared second with Schlechter behind Teichmann in Karlsbad, and with Vidmar behind Capablanca in San Sebastian. 1912 is his big year, shared first with Duras in Breslau, sole first in San Sebastian, 0.5 ahead of Spielmann and Nimzo, and first 2.5 ahead of Spielmann in Bad Pistyan. He didn't face Capablanca again, or Lasker, until his first post-1912 event. Then he finished 6-7th, in S:t Petersburg 1914. |
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Jun-27-09
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| Bridgeburner: What does "for real" mean? |
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Jun-28-09
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| percyblakeney: <What does "for real" mean?> He is #1 at Chessmetrics a few times but never finished ahead of Capablanca or Lasker. The latter had inactive periods and dropped out of the list now and then and Capablanca didn't play any super strong tournaments between 1911 and 1914 (he finished ahead of Rubinstein both times). Rubinstein may have been the strongest player in the world in 1912, but he never got a chance to prove it against Capablanca and Lasker. |
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Jun-28-09
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| Bridgeburner: 25 times is a "few times"? Didn't Rubinstein defeat Capablanca at San Sebastian 1911 in their individual encounter in truly classic fashion? Rubinstein also beat Lasker in St Petersburgh in 1909 in one of the great games when Lasker was both World Champion and rated number 1. These three players shared the top three rankings over quite a long period of time. It's a largely sterile debate, anyway. There's not really a split match between these top players during this era. Rubinstein was chessmetrically rated in the top three from 1907 to 1914, returning to the top three for a few years in the early 1920s, even after the War had apparently taken toll of his mental health. It was only toward the end of Rubinstein's career that Capablanca even leveled his lifetime score against Rubinstein, showing extreme respect for him since San Sebastian. Also, I'd say someone dropping out of the competition scene doesn't really have a strong claim to prove they're at the top of the game. In any case, Rubinstein's score against Lasker was even and again it wasn't until 1925 in their final game that Lasker drew ahead by a single game. |
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Jun-28-09
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| percyblakeney: <25 times is a "few times"?> Still hard to know how "true" old Chessmetrics lists are. Maroczy is #1 on 30 lists, and Janowski is ranked #1 five months in 1904, but were they really better than Lasker? Rubinstein is #1 four months in 1908, after finishing fourth in two tournaments. Few back then would have ranked Rubinstein ahead of the Lasker that just had won 8-0 in the title match against Marshall. Lasker was by the way ranked #9 when that match was played, Marshall #4. <I'd say someone dropping out of the competition scene doesn't really have a strong claim to prove they're at the top of the game> Yes, but in Lasker's case it is just obvious that some Chessmetrics lists are misleading. During S:t Petersburg 1914 Rubinstein is ranked #1 and Lasker #12. Rubinstein was of course a great player, I'm just not convinced that he was better than Lasker when Chessmetrics rank him first. |
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Jun-28-09
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| Bridgeburner: <were they really better than Lasker?> On the day they may have been. Maybe even on the week, or the month...not overall, obviously, but many players were better than Lasker in the games they actually won! Lasker greatness is gauged from his career, but like all careers it had its ups and downs. There are peak periods when other players shine for periods of time, putting everyone else in the shade, until they return to the pack for whatever reason. It's easy to think of examples in modern chess and in other sports. A number one ranking doesn't mean that the player will win all the time, only that s/he is consistently better over a measurable period of time using consistently applied methodology. In Janowski's case, I don't have a problem - he had a purple patch, and maybe everyone was out of form! Maroczy was immensely strong over significant periods of time. Chessmetrics tries to quantify what is essentially almost unquantifiable, namely the strength of players over a century ago. So all its lists can be taken with a grain of salt, but as far as I can see it's the only attempt to apply some sort of rigorous methodology to comparing the players of yesteryear. I recall that someone tried to compare the games of the players from a hundred years ago with modern players, simply using the blunder checker on an engine to pick up really obvious errors, and found that with a few exceptions (Rubinstein amongst them, especially in the endgame), modern players are much better in making fewer serious errors. Obviously there are lots of reasons for this, but even so... |
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Jun-28-09
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| keypusher: <Lasker greatness is gauged from his career, but like all careers it had its ups and downs.>
What is most striking about Lasker (and Capablanca) to me is that they really didn't have downs, except the 1921 match and maybe the 1910 Schlechter match for Lasker and the 1927 B.A. match for Capablanca. As everyone knows, the only tournament in his life in which Capa lost more than two games was AVRO 1938, a few years before his death. Capablanca's only negative tournament score was AVRO; the only one I can think of for Lasker in Moscow 1936, when he was 67. Lasker never once lost two tournament games in a row between Hastings 1895 and Moscow 1936 (and as you might guess, the only time it happened in a match was Havana 1921). It is that extraordinary consistency that puts Capablanca and Lasker on a different level than their early 20th century contemporaries, even Rubinstein. Chessmetrics is a wonderful resource, but has to be used with care. Sonas reduces a player's score when he is inactive; since Lasker essentially was on a one-tournament-every-five-years schedule after 1900, this hits him pretty hard. Thus some of his low rankings around 1908 (before the Marshall match, since 1900 his only event of any significance was Cambridge Springs 1904) and 1914 (nothing after 1910). Not that it's Rubinstein's or Maroczy's or even Sonas' fault that Lasker didn't play that much... |
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Jun-28-09
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| keypusher: <Shams: Of both Keres and Korchnoi I think it could be argued they were at one time the strongest player in the world; can the same be said of Rubinstein?> When were Keres or Korchnoi the best in the world? I would guess Rubinstein had a better claim (though hardly an overwhelming one) between 1909 and 1912 than Keres or Korchnoi ever had. <They might be right. 65 per cent is enough to make that case...> Overall winning percentages in this database are a very crude measure of strength for many reasons, notably that lots of exhibition games are included. |
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Jun-28-09
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| chancho: http://www.eilatgordinlevitan.com/k... |
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Jun-28-09
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| keypusher: <Bridgeburner> <Rubinstein was chessmetrically rated in the top three from 1907 to 1914, returning to the top three for a few years in the early 1920s, even after the War had apparently taken toll of his mental health.> Rubinstein also had some terrific results in 1929 and 1930. Even in the middle of a bad tournament he was capable of extraordinary games -- Rubinstein vs Hromadka, 1923 is a famous example. |
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| Jun-28-09 |
| visayanbraindoctor: Rotlewi vs Rubinstein, 1907 How many would vote this to be the most brilliantly beautiful game ever? Every now and then, I replay it and its beauty never ceases to amaze me. To be able to play such a game, and to have dominated the players who got a Title shot or who should have (in Maroczy's case), bespeaks of a master of the topmost caliber, worthy of a World Championship Match. Akiba Rubinstein beat Frank James Marshall 11 to 9, with 15 draws Akiba Rubinstein beat Siegbert Tarrasch 8 to 0, with 12 draws Akiba Rubinstein beat Carl Schlechter 6 to 2, with 13 draws Akiba Rubinstein beat David Janowski 5 to 3
Akiba Rubinstein beat Geza Maroczy 5 to 1, with 9 draws |
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Jun-28-09
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| keypusher: <and as you might guess, the only time it happened in a match was Havana 1921> Should have made explicit that that was the only time it happened between 1895 and 1936. He lost two in a row to Steinitz in 1894. Don't think it happened in any other serious match. |
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Jun-28-09
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| Bridgeburner: No one can deny that Rubinstein was no worse than number 3 behind the Big Two (let's forget Alekhine for the moment). And then not by much as his personal record against them signifies - it's worthwhile remembering that he had plus scores against both of them until the 20s when he was in decline, notwithstanding his sporadic brilliance. I think it's also worth remembering that his practical contributions to theory are unsurpassed. I don't have any problem in accepting that in his salad days he was the best, if only by a whisker. I also tend to think that Lasker avoided a match with him during these days, even if the motives were purportedly mercenary. What is striking is that he competed with the very best even while he had an extraordinarily debilitating illness - anthropophobia (not anthrophobia which is fear of flowers) - and still stayed in the upper echelons of world chess until his retirement from competition chess. To me this is beyond amazing, it's miraculous. People with this condition usually hide in rooms, they don't travel around and compete with untrammeled egotists. I've tried to deeply analyse the games between Rubinstein and the top players, and have recently finished up with his games against Capablanca and Alekhine. I found the two games with Capablanca that produced results to be fascinating for all sorts of reasons. The 1911 game in San Sebastian - Rubinstein vs Capablanca, 1911 - and the 1928 Berlin game where Capablanca levelled the score - Capablanca vs Rubinstein, 1928 - are IMO worthy of very deep study. Even the mistakes are instructive. I have tried to do these historic games justice, and checked all the variations I've suggested move by move. If anyone has any comments, observations or criticisms, please express them (on the game pages!). My project is to try and understand Rubinstein's games in the context of his life. I must confess that the more I explore Rubinstein's games, the more I admire both his games and the sheer guts and intelligence of the man. His exploits are like a person with acrophobia repeatedly walking the tightrope across the Niagara. What sort of love must he have had for the game to successfully battle a problem like this for so long? |
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Jun-28-09
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| keypusher: <No one can deny that Rubinstein was no worse than number 3 behind the Big Two (let's forget Alekhine for the moment). And then not by much as his personal record against them signifies - it's worthwhile remembering that he had plus scores against both of them until the 20s when he was in decline, notwithstanding his sporadic brilliance.> I would agree he was no worse than #3 in the 1909-1914 time period. You could argue Alekhine took over the #3 spot at St Petersburg and held it until some time between 1924 and 1927. Rubinstein had an even score against Capablanca, as you've pointed out in a number of places. Rubinstein beat Lasker in 1909, Lasker beat Rubinstein in 1914, they had a couple of draws in 1918 and 1923 then Lasker beat Rubinstein in 1925. They didn't play enough to draw any meaningful conclusions. |
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Jun-28-09
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| Bridgeburner: <keypusher>
You're a hard man...
<They didn't play enough to draw any meaningful conclusions.> If you go by statistics. A close examination of the games is worthwhile. The problem with all the "helicopter" views is that much of the detail is missed. |
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Jun-29-09
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| talisman: k-bitz #1900 goes tooooooooooo
Akiiiiibaaaaaa.
<Bridgeburner> i really enjoyed your post...excellent points. it's the reason(s) that rubinstein still intrigues...on another subject; at least the days when a guy like Akiba Rubinstein could not get a chance at the WCC are gone. I would have loved to play through the games of a Lasker-Rubinstein Match...don't misunderstand. i know there are a lot of problems with the WCC Cycle; one of which is i can't figure it out. |
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Jun-29-09
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| Bridgeburner: <talisman> <i can't figure it out.> Can anyone? |
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| Jul-01-09 |
| Dredge Rivers: This whole debate would not exist if Lasker had played Rubinstein instead of Schlechter in 1910. Because: 1. It was the right thing to do! Lasker claimed there would not be enough money at stake, but this is not about money. They should have played if the prize was half a Deutchmark! 2. Laker would have won. No doubt about it; the only question is if Rubinstein could have kept it close. I suspect not, his nerves would have gotten to him at some point and Lasker would have taken advantage. |
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Jul-02-09
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| Bridgeburner: <La[s]ker would have won. No doubt about it> Maybe, maybe not. I'm not sure how you can have no doubt as Rubinstein didn't seem to suffer serious nerves until about the time the War broke out, and afterwards. I notice that some people thought that Schlechter was substandard opposition, but he all but defeated Lasker in their title match. If Rubinstein was better than Schlechter, which unless I'm mistaken is the subtext of your comment that Lasker should have played Rubinstein instead of Schlechter, there's no reason why a Rubinstein couldn't have won the World Championship in 1910 or 1911. Well never know, and what a great pity that is. |
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